to think some people actually wish we didn't live in a welfare state?

[milkgoddessmakesthefinestmilk]

all this talk, about whether it is right for parents to choose not to return to work, and why do people keep having children when they are on a low income.
and all the other million threads on MN about people on benefits etc.

makes me wonder, do you actually wish we didn't live in a welfare state?

i certainaly don't, no NHS people dying because they counldn't afford treatment.
people that are disabled, sick and unable to get a job, struggling to eat, living rough etc

be a pretty unpleasant country then you know.

tbh I do think being on benefits is a bit of a luxury in that you have money coming through all the time regardless. If you work to get that money there are so many factors that can affect that next pay cheque.

I am very glad we have a welfare state but I think it should be temporary and limited. You have a certain amount of time to get ypur act togther (with support of course)and get on with it. I also think there's something hugely wrong with the concept of being better off on benefits! If you can get a job that will pay the essential bills then you should be bound to take that job.....

if you claim benefits then you should also have to do something to give back to the community and make people earn their benefits that way.

well, maybe public sector wages could go up if there were not so many benefit recipients to pay for.

There is an increasing trend in America to limit the amount of government subsidised help an individual can receive. The idea is that everyone can fall on hard times or have life-changing unforeseen circumstances occur, and there should be a social safety net to help people through times of crisis and need.

I don't know specific details, but several states have passed legislation that limits the total time an individual can rely exclusively on the welfare state in their lifetime to 5 years (that is total, so doesn't mean 5 consecutive years).

After 5 years of being supported by the state, if people still need financial help, they must give back to the system. If they are unable to find paid work themselves, they are given work in order to continue receiving benefits. It is primarily unskilled labour, I believe - might be painting graffiti covered walls, clearing derelict sites, sweeping streets, collecting litter, etc.

I have no idea how this is working in reality - whether a success or disaster - and I have some serious misgivings about it (for instance, what happens if a person needs childcare in order to work? Iirc, there are vouchers for subsidised nursuries).

The concept that welfare is a safety net for a limited period, and not a way of life definitely shifts some personal responsibility to the individual, and also is based on the concept that the 'free ride' doesn't last indefinitely. At some point, those who claim are expected to 'give back' or 'contribute' in some way (ie working) if they wish to continue to be supported by the state.

find the river,

your post
"there are huge rewards in education, and in having an interesting job, that are nothing to do with earning power.
BUT that doesnt mean that people shouldnt be paid fairly for what they do. If you have spent years training for a specialist (and necessary) role in society, then of course you should be rewarded for it.
And in many ways this argument is more important for lower status jobs. I have an interesting career; therefore there are lots of positives about it apart from the money. If, however, I was going to do a dull, repetitive job like stacking shelves"

the point your missing is even the jobs you seem to sneer at such as shelf stacking etc are all important too for us to have a functioning society, do you actually realise we need allsorts to make the country work?
grit needs to be put on the roads in severve weather rubbish needs to be sorted etc
the country can't just be full of Doctors and accountants you know!
you need indians as well as chiefs!

perhaps alot of people in what you refer to low status jobs, feel they are already looked down upon and sneered at, why the hell not be go the whole hog and claim benefits !

tnacious, that link you gave, is it for real? the one at half eleven?

Milkgoddess - if you read the posts you'll see that I'm not sneering. I am agreeing that these jobs need to be done. It's a fact that some jobs are low waged and low status. It doesn't necessarily follow that anyone should sneer at them. I certainly don't.

For once, you have started a thread that has actually led to intelligent discussion (bet that wasn't what you expected eh ).
So why not get back to filling your half full cup rather than shit stirring

earlybird - interesting post.

(Thank you TG. Milkgoddess comes with a health warning!!! Maybe you missed last night?!)

no need to fill my cup river, its already full

it was they way you said
"BUT that doesnt mean that people shouldnt be paid fairly for what they do. If you have spent years training for a specialist (and necessary) role in society, then of course you should be rewarded for it.

just pointing put to you that MANY jobs are "necessary in society" not just specialists jobs
as you didn't seem to realise that.
thought i'd help you out there

Earlybird - no system is ever going to be perfect. It would be good to think that our government had the skills and resources to properly evaluate and pick the best elements from various societies. However, I'm not holding my breath!

"Its things like getting a drs appointment so you can get a prescription for paracetamol for free even though you can buy it really cheaply otc and you won't actually die without it. Some people allways collect their repeat prescriptions because they are entitled to them and they just stockpile them at home. Often elderly people have a fortune in fybogel and gavison at home. My grandmother got tamazapan every month for years after she had stopped taking it and threw them all away."

as a pharmacist, the medications ive seen returned when a patient has died, is truely shocking! im talking thousands of pounds worth of meds.
alot of times, esp with the older generation they are scared to tell the dr they do not want to take a certain medication anymore, so the get their script filled then don't actually take/use them.
they also think the dr will find out if they don't get there script dispensed.
as if the dr is really going to have the time to chase all his/her patients up with the PPA!

We currently have thosands of pounds worth of medication in our cupboards. just a months worth. at one point, one drug was costing over £1200 A MONTH!

I am actually glad we live i na welfare state. dh LVAD cost £70 000, plus his hospital care, plus the cost of the transplant and his medical team. he had a lot of £££ spent on him keeping him alive, and i personally think it was worth every penny.

Don't try to dig your way out milky. I never said that lower status jobs aren't necessary. You don't need to 'help out' at all. You are a champion shit stirrer as we all know

misdee, im sure hes worth every penny too
that wasn't about people that have mediction/treatment on the NHS, it was about people that hoard many years worth of medications at home they do not use.

or get loads of, say e45 crem on prescription and give it way to family and friends or even try and take it back to the pharmacy to get the money back on it[ i have seen this a few times too!!]

TG that link is

ROFL TG

e45 is shite. i had two tubs once, halfway through a tub, dd1 suffered an allergic reaction to it (this has happened repeatadly since then to various creams, she reacts suddenly to stuff that has been fine for ages) seeing that if i returned it to the pharmacy they would bin it anyway , i gave it to a relative who had mild dry skin (dd1 had severe eczema). was that wrong?

also i have loads of dressing stuff like obsite etc still here, again that would be binned, do you know a charity or somewhere who would take this stuff?

nowt to dig my way out of river

as i said, i was just pointing put to you that MANY jobs are "necessary in society" not just specialists jobs

if you realised this, i don't think you would of said "specialist (and necessary) role in society"
as you would not of need to add and necessary would you !

Oh gawwdd....milky. look, I was referring to the fact that some specialist jobs are necessary to society. Some aren't at all!
Of course there are also a lot of non-specialist jobs which don't require that level of training which are also necessary!

It really comes to something when you have to try to rewrite other people's posts to try to find something to moan about!! It is very clear to most of us on MN what your agenda is (I believe you saw the thread too last night ) and it's really rather dull dull dull!!

misdee, i don't think its wrong to pass along something like a pot of e45 you didn't get on with, but i certainly wouldn't pass along any medications [as many people do] as it could be very harmful.
but i don't we need to worry about 1 pot of e45

try the red cross 1st of all, i think they may be able to use it
if you take it into the pharmacy they will destroy it.

yes but i have also given away bottle of pilatum (reactions) dermol 500 (that was my savious and then she had a pretty nasty painful reaction to it) and other various creams she has since reacted to. am hoping we get at least another year out of aveeno before she starts reacting to that.

will try red cross about dressing packs etc. i know they will get destroyed if we return them, and ithink its a bit of a waste, as alkl the packs are sterile sealed anyway.