AIBU to think this disciplinary is unfair?

[GucciTennisShoesRunninFromYourIssues]

Hi all,

I'll try to keep this brief and stick to facts while keeping anonymous.
I have been at a company for 12 years. Never had a single bad word against me up until a week ago I was told I would be in an 'informal catch up' the next day due to lateness.
the informal catch up the next day was anything but that. I was told that I was possibly facing a disciplinary. I had no time to prepare, no examples of the lateness until the disciplinary. I got told days and times in the disciplinary but due to not being able to prepare I had no explanation. I did say there would be no unexplained lateness as I've never done that so I knew there's be a reason but as I had no examples of times I wanted to stick to facts.
I have been having IT issues which have been reported and tickets logged but nothing has been done.

I went away, videoed the IT problems which transpire that is causing the log in time to be later than I actually am logging in. I received the minutes back from the meeting and refused to sign them as they missed out crucial parts. For example, me telling them (that they know of) the IT issues that they are already aware of.
since then, I went away and was able to marry up log in times with IT issues on certain days (which they were also aware of) and have video evidence of this as well as internal call listener to, to IT.

I have offered and said I'd like to show my evidence now in the second meeting we had the other day. Not once have they viewed my evidence but are still 'discussing the chance of disciplinary.'
at no point did I receive a warning of this happening. Not once was I offered a witness. Should you be offered a disciplinary in the meetings leading up to the disciplinary?

the whole thing stinks quite frankly. I am looking to leave anyway. There have been many people who have disciplinaries in the last few months.

do I stand anywhere with this? I'm worried sick. I'm a single parent and actively seeking and interviewing for other jobs.

HR and my manager was in the meeting.

I have made them aware of every IT issue every single time. This seems desperately unfair. AIBU?

From what you e said, it does seem harsh and I’d be documenting and reporting every minute IT issue from now on, as evidence.

You might have to accept it this time though and redouble your efforts to find another job.

Thanks.
it's just a hard pill to swallow for 12 years and not a single bad word against my name. It seems so unfair. They haven't even looked at any of my evidence.

It's not right and sounds like they are trying to force you out.
It sounds like they have not made it a formal disciplinary yet? Has HR given you any response to the evidence you have provided? If not, email them and ask for one. Also ask IT for details of how they plan to resolve the issues. Do not let them think that you are being passive in this.

I'm sorry this is happening to you, being harassed like this is really unpleasant. It is also a long are arduous journey if you were to go to an employment tribunal, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

If you're already looking for a new position stay focussed on that and try not to get too down about this situation

This is a massive time wasting exercise.Talk about taking a sledgehammer to a nut and causing unnecessary stress.
Easier way to handle it:

Manager: OP, I see you have been logging in late the past X weeks
OP: I haven't boss, my computer system is clocking me as 15 mins after I am actually starting
Manager: oh dear, let's get the IT guys to look at that for you and we can update the system
OP: thanks boss

Sorted

That's literally what I've been doing for the past month.

I don't understand 😔

Slightly off topic but I watched Mr Bates and the Post Office last night. There was never any acknowledgment by the PO that the computer system had issues…. And that led to 100s of unjustified prosecutions and worse. My point is that they need to be very sure that their system is working correctly. Is anyone else impacted? Can you prove you were on line or on a call when they say you weren’t?

I sent an email documenting that none of my evidence had been looked at and they just said 'we'll have another meeting.'

to which we did. And my evidence still wasn't looked at. They just said they need to go away and discuss disciplinary and I'll find out whether I have one next week.

should I have been offered a witness too?

Yes I have evidence and videos of the issues on my phone (which I sent to the tech team) but they don't want to view my evidence

Are you in a union? If you are request union representation at your next meeting. If you are not in a union, in your position I would join one

I think you can ask for a witness if it is an actual disciplinary meeting, but they should give you notice of the meeting to arrange this.

I recorded a disciplinary meeting, I told them I would and provide a written copy (this was many years ago). So if they are going to do this, tell them you want a witness and the record the meeting.

If they are trying to force you out, it may help them make a judgement on whether to just pay you off.

Unions require about a month's membership before they take on a case, so essentially they don't take on existing cases. However, a local rep / regional officer might be lenient and allow it onto the case files.

Please speak to ACAS which is free employment advice.

Please also join a union.

It sounds like they are bypassing the redundancy route by taking spurious disciplinary action which is technically unfair dismissal if they label it as gross misconduct and sack you.

They are acting against employment law. ACAS would offer great advice at this stage.

Even if the employer does not have a recocognised union agreement, you are still allowed representation and by law they must allow it.

I'd send them a very official looking letter, watermarked and lay out that you have not been given a chance to defend yourself, evidence has been disregarded and the names of those who have refused to view it, that they are not following policy and that you require all further meetings be held with a union representative present.

I'd also file a grievance against the offending managers but I'm a petty cunt.

If you are in a union you need to enlist their help. Having said that, I paid my union dues for forty years " because they'd support me if I needed them" then when it was redundancy time they were absolutely. fucking. useless. Literally no value. Company wanted me out, I was out, blatantly unfair dismissal. Bitter? Me?

Sorry... Derail. Sounds like you have a case OP, fight as hard as you can.

The way I usually deal with things like this is to either printout and write on or edit the digital version to add what I want recorded. If I edit the digital version I clearly use a different colour font and note my points concisely.

Such as:
On review of the examples provided above, the late start times are due to:

1. 3 Jan - IT issues - IT ticket number / incident number. Refer Attachment 1. Delay in logging in due to xxxxxxxxx
2. 15 Jan - repeat structure above.

Then I sign after my additions. If they want a signed document, they'll get the document with all relevant information, not the version that suits them.

Unions won't usually support with something that occurred before you became a member

Read your organisations policy for disciplinary matters

This may help too

https://www.acas.org.uk/discipline-and-grievance

Call ACAS and seek help from them

Absolutely - always join a union if there is one ✊ If there isn't one, start one.
Good luck OP. YANBU

Yes it is unfair.
But your choices are:
to keep fighting them, using up your emotional and mental energy, when they are obviously shit employers and may be trying to force you out,
or, to look for another job and leave ASAP.

Do you have the stomach to fight them all the way to a tribunal?

The relationship is dead. Your time at this company is over.
Just go through the motions of this corrupt process whilst job hunting.

Your witness/companion does not have to be a colleague you can ask for someone else to attend. Also the companion can speak. They can’t answer questions but they can ask for a break if you need of in my case made sure I didn’t say anything I shouldn’t. If you have any friends in hr (not same company) have a chat with them. I wish you well. It’s horrible I am out the other side. I had excellent support I was very lucky.

Really sorry to hear this. I had a similar issue with a young new manager who’d recently started a management training course. The issues raised could easily have been dealt with in normal day to day working, eg one issue had simply slipped off my radar at a very busy time and a timely reminder sound have sufficed. They did the same with another older colleague, but not the younger one

Do you have a copy of your company’s disciplinary procedures so you can understand where things are? If it’s simply an IT issue, keep logging them and keep on with the broken record of stating this.

I went away, videoed the IT problems which transpire that is causing the log in time to be later than I actually am logging in
I don't understand that. Surely if the clock is wrong, it will also show you logging off at a later time too? And why is it some days and not others? Are you working from home? Did IT go back and explain why the logging time is wrong?

OP mentions that others have been subject to sudden disciplineries. Sounds like the company is looking to shed staff but unfairly/illegally swerve the redundancy process.

I understood it as OP has laptop on say 08.26, tries to login to company networks but there’s a problem with that process and OP doesn’t finally come online and be observed as ‘green status’ until 08.45

What is your Managers stance in these meetings?

From your posts it sounds like she's been aware of the issue as you've been keeping her in the loop that you were having these issue, she's been referring you to IT, but then is suddenly supporting this action?

Is it that she's completely IT illiterate and thinks you're talking bollocks? Do you have any insight on that?

If this was one of my team unless I thought they were making excuses and IT had said there was no issue which I had sight of, then I'd be supporting you as I was aware of issues with logging in.

I can't tell if they are IT illiterate, or trying to get rid of you? (Provided you're telling the truth which is more than plausible imo.)

There's always a union, because there are general unions. The TUC website has a union finder which you enter your sector into, and it will tell you which unions would represent you.

However, mine likes you to have been a member for at least 3 months before taking on a case.

They were excellent went I went through a disciplinary that I was innocent of, and also a few years later when I was made redundant. My union wasn't recognised by my workplace, so my rep was external to the company and it's what he did full time - union experiences fo seem to vary according to the abilities and willingness of your rep.

Definitely go down the union/ACAS route, but I think it's also time to make sure your CV is up-to-date and check the jobs market.