AIBU to think this disciplinary is unfair?

[GucciTennisShoesRunninFromYourIssues]

Hi all,

I'll try to keep this brief and stick to facts while keeping anonymous.
I have been at a company for 12 years. Never had a single bad word against me up until a week ago I was told I would be in an 'informal catch up' the next day due to lateness.
the informal catch up the next day was anything but that. I was told that I was possibly facing a disciplinary. I had no time to prepare, no examples of the lateness until the disciplinary. I got told days and times in the disciplinary but due to not being able to prepare I had no explanation. I did say there would be no unexplained lateness as I've never done that so I knew there's be a reason but as I had no examples of times I wanted to stick to facts.
I have been having IT issues which have been reported and tickets logged but nothing has been done.

I went away, videoed the IT problems which transpire that is causing the log in time to be later than I actually am logging in. I received the minutes back from the meeting and refused to sign them as they missed out crucial parts. For example, me telling them (that they know of) the IT issues that they are already aware of.
since then, I went away and was able to marry up log in times with IT issues on certain days (which they were also aware of) and have video evidence of this as well as internal call listener to, to IT.

I have offered and said I'd like to show my evidence now in the second meeting we had the other day. Not once have they viewed my evidence but are still 'discussing the chance of disciplinary.'
at no point did I receive a warning of this happening. Not once was I offered a witness. Should you be offered a disciplinary in the meetings leading up to the disciplinary?

the whole thing stinks quite frankly. I am looking to leave anyway. There have been many people who have disciplinaries in the last few months.

do I stand anywhere with this? I'm worried sick. I'm a single parent and actively seeking and interviewing for other jobs.

HR and my manager was in the meeting.

I have made them aware of every IT issue every single time. This seems desperately unfair. AIBU?

I'm actively interviewing for other roles thankfully!

Absolutely, also remember you can bring a colleague into the meeting.

So there are a few things to unpick here.

No, they don't have to give you notice or full intent of an informal meeting. When it gets formal then yes you are allowed a representative or colleague.
They haven't said they are going to actually take you down a disciplinary route and are fact finding at this point and informally looking into the matter, so need need to panic at this point.
You don't know if they haven't looked at or evaluated the 'evidence' you have sent them. Just because they didn't do it in the meeting, doesn't mean they didn't look.
I would bcc your private account of the evidence being sent so that you have a copy and record in case it gets tougher down the line.
I don't think what they have done it wrong - you were perceived to be late a number of times (yes due to something out of your control). They wanted to have a meeting to understand why. You explained it and provided evidence. What happens next is they should drop it.

I agree with someone else saying they are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. But, maybe they have concerns with other people, or are looking at redundancies and want to be more formal around this time - who knows?

Don't panic. Just keep doing what you are doing. Record everything. If they write minutes about your meeting and omit things just email back and say that they have forgotten XXX and send it back to them.

I'm sure it will come to nothing from what you have said. If not, you may also want to call ACAS (free) to take your through your options and explain everything.

Please write down all of this, including the detail of being sworn at and the conversation/context around that.

As I said previously, this appears to still be in the investigatory stage, and may not proceed any further. They don't normally come to a conlcusion until the end of that stage, so any evidence you provide will not be discussed unless there is something to clarify.

but aside from that there's no update yet. I recorded the whole thing on my phone. I didn't tell them. I wasn't even allowed to speak and I got sworn at.

They honestly sound pretty awful, BUT, do not say you have a recording at any point. Depending on their policies, that could be enough for a fair gross misconduct dismissal - many employers now specifically state "secret recording" as misconduct.

There is no point speaking to a solicitor because all they will tell you is that you must await the outcome of the disciplinary. And I am going to be very honest - unless it is dismissal, it doesn't matter whether it is "fair" or not - there will be nothing you can do about it. You could appeal to the employer, but that's it and appeals are seldom upheld. It is well known that the "best way" to fairly dismiss someone unfairly is by attrition. One warning after another until the get to a final warning. Because once you are on a final warning only the reason for dismissal needs to be "reasonable" as that is what a tribunal will look at - not at the things that got you to the final warning. And that "final straw" can be something quite small in and of itself. Most employees see the writing on the wall and leae under their own steam before getting that far.

Thank you, @SirHumphreyRocks that's really invaluable information I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this.

im actively seeking alternative employment. I'm degree educated and im having a few interviews so hopefully sooner rather than later I can leave as like you said, the writings on the wall.

I'll keep quiet about the recording and keep my head down and see what happens.

https://www.tuc.org.uk/joinunion- more info about finding a union and what they are.

Everyone has the right to join a union. A company does not have to recognise a union unless more than 30% staff are members; if it is recognised, the union must be involved with thongs like pay negotiations. But even if it is not recognised, a union can help you with things like disciplinaries and grievances, including supporting you (in person) in formal meetings. A good union will probably also have a library of information on employment law, your rights and do on, plus advisors if you have a question.

I seeing like insurance- I hope never to need them, but been hugely glad they're there when I have needed them.

Yes it's unfair.

Stuff like this is why everyone should be in a union. You can join now and ask for support. A union rep will be able to join any potential disciplinary meetings. But, check your company's policy. Ours allows a colleague to join you in disciplinary meetings if you wish if there isn't union representation - I've done this to support colleagues before. It makes a difference to feel there's someone on your side.

It sounds like you're doing everything you can to record information and report issues stopping your attendance - that is good and keeping a clear log is invaluable. Also remember to raise, if it does go to a disciplinary meeting, that this issue hasn't been addressed with you prior so you were given an opportunity to improve your punctuality. They should have done that.t

I would be sending your line manager proof every single time your IT makes you late to log on, even if this is every morning. I'd also be sending a regular email to say "my IT problems have still not been addressed by the IT team, I'm sharing my concern that this may impact me logging on tomorrow, I will update you how this goes." Basically, head off any possible allegation that you haven't raised this at every turn.

Most unions won’t get involved with existing issues
it’s a bit piss taker to join because u need them

its like insuring your house after its burnt down and trying to claim

Sounds like, the company is in trouble and they are trying to get people to quit. You know already you’d be happier elsewhere.

It sounds like this was an investigation not a disciplinary therefore you do not need notice or eligible to have a witness.

You are right to not sign the minutes of the meeting if they are incorrect. Normally you should be able to add to them?! At my company that’s what we do.

Keep evidence of everything. If you want to leave anyway may as well take them for constructive dismissal

You cannot just "take someone for constructive dismissal" - there are very strict criteria under which you can make a claim (and even then you would be likley to lose). The first of those is that you must have rounds for a rupudiatary breach and unless it is substantial (which this is not) you would have to drag everything through all appeal stages and THEN still have grounds to walk away. It is really hard to win cases of constructive dismissal. And if the OP had another job, even if they won it would be hardly worth anything.

If you are in a union, definitely get them involved but if you join a union whilst you are in an existing issue, they won't help.
Phone ACAS
You need to document everything
Minutes of the meeting, check before signing
Ask to see evidence from them.
They have legal obligations to follow as well as work place policy etc.
Hope all goes well. Definitely look on ACAS , Phone them for advice.

Hi everyone.

just to make you all aware, I have been made redundant this morning.

the disciplinary has been dropped.

I feel so relieved, two parts really but it's obvious what they were trying to do. I financially have a few more the to find a job right for me. Thank you all for your help on this subject as it's all new to me.

onto bigger and better things!

Best wishes for the future, @GucciTennisShoesRunninFromYourIssues . it's the job that was made redundant not you.

Wow! So they were clearly trying to get rid of you so they didn’t have to pay. At least you are out now. Good luck!

Thanks for the update. Sounds like you are better off out of there. Best of luck for the future!

Has a proper redundancy process been followed? You can only be made redundant if your role doesn’t exist any more. This could be in doubt if, for example, other people in substantially the same role haven’t been considered for redundancy or if they’re advertising for someone to take on the role that you’ve been made redundant from

What a terrible company they are to try to get out of the lawful process. They certainly did not deserve you and you are going on to far better things no doubt. All the very best of luck.

it sounds like this is the best outcome, but how awful that they were trying to find a way to get rid of you without giving you your redundancy payment. Lesson to all of us to keep proper records.

Ive been made redundant, it’s a worry, but it’s actually been the best thing for my career. Best of luck with your interviews.

Sorry to hear the update, it sounds like they were trying to hound you out prior to offering redundancy. Scum, what a way to treat a member of staff after 12 years!!! I hope they have followed redundancy process correctly?

You’ll look back and thank your lucky stars that you were made redundant. How shitty of them to try and shoehorn you out first though.

So they were trying to get rid without payment. Bunch of snakes @GucciTennisShoesRunninFromYourIssues treating a loyal hardworking employee like that. Please check they have paid you the correct amount for how long you have been there as well as paying you for untaken but accrued holiday and also any payment in lieu of notice. That will depend where you are (UK or not etc) but all info is available on government sites or citizens’ advice etc. Wishing you good luck.

Last year with no warning I was informed that disciplinary process had begun as an investigation carried out which led to a disciplinary hearing. I got a final written warning but it was a terrible shock when I had the first meeting which also suspended me. I ultimately left but it had a profound effect on me. Be kind to yourself and gather evidence. Ultimately if they have decided this process then there is little you can do.