AIBU to think this disciplinary is unfair?

[GucciTennisShoesRunninFromYourIssues]

Hi all,

I'll try to keep this brief and stick to facts while keeping anonymous.
I have been at a company for 12 years. Never had a single bad word against me up until a week ago I was told I would be in an 'informal catch up' the next day due to lateness.
the informal catch up the next day was anything but that. I was told that I was possibly facing a disciplinary. I had no time to prepare, no examples of the lateness until the disciplinary. I got told days and times in the disciplinary but due to not being able to prepare I had no explanation. I did say there would be no unexplained lateness as I've never done that so I knew there's be a reason but as I had no examples of times I wanted to stick to facts.
I have been having IT issues which have been reported and tickets logged but nothing has been done.

I went away, videoed the IT problems which transpire that is causing the log in time to be later than I actually am logging in. I received the minutes back from the meeting and refused to sign them as they missed out crucial parts. For example, me telling them (that they know of) the IT issues that they are already aware of.
since then, I went away and was able to marry up log in times with IT issues on certain days (which they were also aware of) and have video evidence of this as well as internal call listener to, to IT.

I have offered and said I'd like to show my evidence now in the second meeting we had the other day. Not once have they viewed my evidence but are still 'discussing the chance of disciplinary.'
at no point did I receive a warning of this happening. Not once was I offered a witness. Should you be offered a disciplinary in the meetings leading up to the disciplinary?

the whole thing stinks quite frankly. I am looking to leave anyway. There have been many people who have disciplinaries in the last few months.

do I stand anywhere with this? I'm worried sick. I'm a single parent and actively seeking and interviewing for other jobs.

HR and my manager was in the meeting.

I have made them aware of every IT issue every single time. This seems desperately unfair. AIBU?

Hello OP

do not accept the disciplinary, refuse to sign any paperwork, and contact your household insurance as you are covered for legal advice and set up a meeting to discuss your situation.

do not attend any meeting without a witness going forward and ask to record the meeting, so that there is a permanent record of them not looking at evidence or following procedure.

Stand firm, you have evidence and you are in the right.

Read your company’s disciplinary policy (often linked with grievance) which should be available on your intranet.

Then contact ACAS. It doesn’t sound as though they have followed the standard process of a potential disciplinary. However, at the moment it is only potential.

If they decide to discipline they must follow the process as set out in the policy.

Please contact ACAS and go through all the details with them. They are very helpful and are also impartial, favouring best practice as opposed to employer or employee.

Wishing you the best of luck with this.

I agree with everyone who says contact ACAS in the first instance. Also make sure you have a record of everything that said between you and them; if it's on the phone or in person, write a note immediately afterwards and date it.

In the longer term/bigger picture, I don't agree with those who say you should just accept that the relationship has gone bad and leave. If they continue to behave as they are, lawyer up. You may well be able to leave with a good settlement, rather than just having to resign.

Not looking at evidence provided seems to me (a lay person is such matters) as not following a reasonable process.

People have been successful at employment tribunals because of failures of process, even though they have been 100% guilty of what they were dismissed for.

Hope you can find another job soon and saddened to read of the treatment you are receiving.

If she’s not already in a union there’s little point joining now for support with this issue because a union won’t advise on something that pre-dates membership. It’s like buying car insurance after you’ve crashed your car.

You seem confused about what the performance management process is, and where in the process you currently are.

Good practice would be to have informal discussions to see if things improve, then a formal (minuted) meeting which lays out the issues, the actions you need to take to improve, by when, and how this will be evaluated.

Only after that has not worked would a decent organisation trigger a formal disciplinary hearing. If that's done properly, then you should have the accusation(s) clearly stated beforehand, and you should be told what the potential consequences are. The last bit is important because it helps define your rights under the concept of natural justice: for example if you could be dismissed then you should be allowed a friend to help you defend yourself, introduce evidence that your defence relies upon, be given the opportunity to examine witnesses, and the chance to rebut evidence. To do that you'd need disclosure - to be given the evidence against you in advance. If the most that could happen is you get a file note for 12 months then you're unlikely to be allowed to bring a barrister in.

It sounds like you're not there, yet. If you've been denied the opportunity to present evidence in the early informal stage of a process to manage poor performance then that's really quite crap from them, but ultimately you have not yet been subjected to an unfair hearing which could result in your dismissal because you yourself have said that they are talking about the formal disciplinary hearing as something that might happen in the future.

All that having been said, I agree with a PP. If there have been a lot of disciplinary proceedings recently and nothing else has changed in terms of management attitudes etc then it does look and smell like they are trying redundancies on the cheap. And if you've been there 12 years you are going to be expensive to make redundant.

Yes, it's very frightening when you are on your own dealing with what seems like a very unfair process but you can get advice from ACAS on your rights and fair procedures which will inform how you can deal with and / or challenge this. You can also read up on the ACAS website about the grievance and disciplinary requirements on employers and what you are entitled to in such procedures. This will strengthen your arm and give you confidence in how to proceed. Also read your staff manual and procedures, which must comply with the ACAS codes of practice. Maybe you will decide to launch an official grievance to protect your position.

But beyond the immediate problem, what do you think is going on generally in the company and do you think there is more behind this development, than the issue of lateness? Are there changes at the top? Is there new management? Does your manager seem a good sort and do you get on? Is the company profitable? Are they trying to cut staff but looking for an excuse to get rid of certain people at a certain grade or length of service or trying to avoid redundancy requirements and payments?

It's very difficult going through this and it would be wise to keep looking for a new job and keep your hopes up for that and do not despair. You will get something else. And meanwhile even in your present job, there is help and you do have protections, though you shouldn't have to go through all this ordeal of being ignored and threatened with disciplinary if it's not well based.

They're trying to manage you out, for whatever reason. If you're in a union then get them onto it right away. If you aren't then find a good employment lawyer and make sure your employer knows you're taking legal advice.

Sorry but this does annoy me. Some people pay their union dues for years but others try to claim the benefits without ever being a member (I know the op hasn't suggested this.). Bit like taking out car insurance after the car crash.

ACAS is a good idea.

Can I just clarify op, you go to log in at 9 am but can’t so you ring the it Helpdesk it gets sorted but with the result that you arent really able to do work til say 9:15. You then work all day but finish at the normal time which is right as you were available to work at nine .

you then come in the next day and you have the same it issue, so it’s an issue that happens when you try and log on?

Most (all?) unions won't offer support until someone has been a member for x months, for that reason.

I don't think it sounds at all good, but up to now they haven't done anything legally unfair. Your meetings are investigatory meetings, not discipliary meetings, and they have not moved to a disciplinary yet. They don'tneed to look at your evidence during the investigatory meeting. They have given you an opportuity to present that evidence, they go away and look at the whole thing, then decide whether a discipinary is warranted - I am not saying it is, because it sounds like it isn't, but this is how an investigation works. If the system works correctly then they assess the evidence and if warranted find there is not case to answer. In investigation meetings witnesses are not heard although you can provide the names of people who are witnesses or can verify facts.

Thank you everyone for your advice.

they have invited me into this office this afternoon for the formal meeting (WFH so far today)

im just heading in now so will update later on. Thank you for all your support.

That's no notice at all, is it?

I don’t have knowledge of this sort of thing but they sound as if they’re being massively unfair. Stand firm and I hope you get on ok.

God I hope you are in a union

If you are invited to any further meetings:
ask in writing
-for the agenda
-if you are to come alone/ have the right to a representative
-ask if this meeting may be the informal or formal stage of any ongoing further process
State you will confirm your attendance, and anyone else’s, when you have answers to the above. If you are ambushed politely stand up, explain why you are ending the meeting then go straight to put this in writing with the above questions asked for the rescheduled meeting.

ACAS, Union support.
Check their policies around disciplineries and check they are being followed.
Put in formal complaint about their behaviour, especially if they aren't following their policies.
Keep notes and everything in writing with them as evidence.

Yes any union is only as effective as the local rep so varies considerably in effectiveness.

I know that, it is the entitlement of people who think it is fine to buy the insurance after the car crash that annoys me. Us mugs were paying for years for the fun of it.

I'll be honest I don't even know what a union is. I've just got my head down for nearly 13 years and never had an issue at all in my whole working life.

I had the meeting yesterday. They still haven't looked at my evidence but I've had 2 projects taken away from me (this will make a big dent in my bonus.) and they are still 'investigating.'

I feel so so deflated. I have done nothing wrong. Many of us older employees have received similar recently and there is talk of the company being in jeopardy. There have been a few redundancies but not in our department.

but aside from that there's no update yet. I recorded the whole thing on my phone. I didn't tell them. I wasn't even allowed to speak and I got sworn at.

I just can't believe this is happening. I am so sad my projects have been taken from me.

im going to book an appointment with a solicitor and get on the phone to ACAS.

we're marketing in the private sector. Small-ish company if that's any use for the union?

Yes!! They are there to support you and give advice to protect your job/interests.

Sounds like a fact finding interview before a disciplinary
on paper it does sound as though you would flag up as being late do it’s not unreasonable for them to deal with it

from what you say your video evidence is conclusive
does anyone else gave to same problem with this IT system

I would wonder if that manager just wants you out or whether the wider company is trying to push people out how avoid having to go the redundancy route and have to pay long serving employees like you.

As other have already said get advice from ACAS or citizen advice, get a copy of the official disciplinary policy and I would also lodge an official grievance with HR.

Also I am afraid this might be a sign that you need to start thinking about other employment because this is not a good sign. Sort out your cv and keep an eye for other opportunities.

They have been aware of the IT issues for over a year and I've raised countless tickets.