To not see the appeal of Reform

[Reallyneedsaholiday]

Sure, I can see the appeal of “reform” (with a lower case “r”), noone is under any illusion that the country is in a great way, at the moment, but not the appeal of the Reform political party. And I genuinely want to understand what it is that has so many people in thrall to them. All I’m hearing is “sToP tHE bOAtS”, but Reform will not do this, no matter what they are saying now. Simply returning anyone who arrives here on a boat, without following due process and considering their application, would see the country subjected to international sanctions, that we cannot afford. The only viable way to actually stop the boats, is to address why people are using them in the first place. WE have decreed that no one can apply from anywhere other than on our soil, and so have left them with little choice. France offered the opportunity to have a centre in Calais, Rwanda would have also worked, as a base where asylum seekers could apply without risking their lives on the channel. Those who are successful could be brought here safely, and anyone using unauthorised routes, could THEN be legally removed without appeal. It’s not a difficult solution, so you have to ask yourself “why” politicians turned down the opportunity. The only logical reason for this, is that they WANT the boats to continue. Again, you have to ask yourself “why”, and the reason for THAT is simply that they want the distraction, they need the scapegoat.
We’ve all seen the headlines, claiming that asylum seekers are living in the lap of luxury, with free phones etc, which is simply not true. Asylum seekers actually cost the country less than we lose through tax avoidance, every year.

But if we put immigration aside, as the distraction that it is, what appeals about Reform? I’ve asked many people and really struggle to find any Reform supporter who can even tell me what any of their policies are. Why are they so keen to sign away our human rights, leaving us to the whim of successive governments? Why are they so keen to introduce a private health care system (good luck getting any cover if your have any pre-existing medical conditions in your family)? Why are they so keen to introduce fracking? Or to scrap “net zero”? Tbh, I’m not completely sold on “net zero” myself, but overall, being more environmentally friendly strikes me as a positive move. Less pollution, less plastics, cleaner water, cheaper, safer energy etc, etc. you could scrap the title “net zero”, while keeping the important bits that would generally improve our quality of life, without throwing what we have achieved, to date, away.

I could go on, but I’d just like to ask anyone who is thinking of voting Reform, at the next opportunity, why? And how you see your own life improving IF they won a GE?

I am also politically homeless. There isn’t a party that I believe is suitable to lead at the moment.

I am

It’s a fair point, if you know what their actual policies are.

A fair point, so why is Reform appealing to anyone?

Why? How can you know for certain what people think Reform will do for them?

Many people have already explained why Reform is appealing to some people.

You might disagree with those reasons being valid and you might not see it yourself. And that is fair enough but I don't understand why you're still asking the same question after 8 pages of reasons and discussions.

Clearly no one has given you reasons that make you rethink your own position but that doesn't mean they are not reasons.

Reform have acknowledged problems that many people can see/are asking questions about but the main parties are refusing to address or even ask or answer questions honestly about. Whether you agree that those things are problems or their solutions will work or are even solutions at all is a different matter.

I don't want a Reform government but I can understand how some people's frustrations have led them to the conclusion that they do.

Sadly, I’m afraid you’re right. I’ve never not voted, as I’ve always been aware of how hard women fought to win the right to vote. But, if there were an election now, I’d be very tempted not to vote at all.

Thankfully, there isn’t an election now, though, and maybe by the time there is one, things might have improved? (Although that’s about as likely as pigs flying, I fear.)

Yes it’s been explained

They arent though? They created a 'crisis' through brexit and causing the small boats, and then making it seem like these very few people in real terms are the reason why Dave cant find a job and not addressing the fact that hes an alcoholic with 1 gsce.
They are good at spinning blame but like maga - will make the cost of living rapidly increase. Unlike America - our market isnt big enough to bully other economies. Privatising the nhs is also a stupid move. Yes it'd be 'cheaper' on the surface but Americans pay more tax on healthcare and get reduced quality of life in return. Privatisation only causes costs to increase per person. Perhaps they want more old people to die so the pension bill is not so high?

If Brexit created this situation as you believe why are countries still in the EU still dealing with similar migration issues?

I am not an expert, but I think that the UK occupies a close-to-unique position in europe as an Island. In mainland EU, with open land borders, controlling illegal immigration is very very hard, but as an Island - with agreements with the mainland - it was much much easier. Outside of the EU we are "on our own" and can't rely on the agreements that Farage's policies threw away. Meanwhile the mainland EU continues to suffer from the problems it has suffered for years.

I think that part of Reform's appeal is that if you are an ordinary person, perhaps not especially bright or well-educated or well paid, and you know that huge swathes of the political, academic and liberal middle class elite absolutely despise you for things like being "an alcoholic with 1 gsce", you can give a big F-You to such people by voting reform.

We always had similar migration whilst in the EU, until recently the highest figure was 2002 / 3. It was just by lorries instead.

I'm not sure what your getting at here ,so I'm probably missing your point
But of my 10 ladies in my hobby group they are all openly voting reform,and are all definitely middle class ,good education,good jobs ,couple of mums at home still .
Just ordinary women really

The best thing labour can do is get rid of starmer and put someone in who can do the job properly,they have 4 years to turn things round..

My point was that one group of people who support reform are "ordinary people" (working class, often not university educated, favour straight talking and common sense), and part of the reason that they support reform is to stick two fingers up to the middle class, good education, good jobs, middle class types (not your hobby group friends) who are utter snobs and look down at anyone who does not share their privileged middle class values.

IMHO another group supporting reform are people like your friends.

Another group supporting Reform are doing so out of a fear that if the concerns of Reform voters are ignored then the end result will be an ever-greater shift to the right, to the point we might get the literal fascists that antifa claim are already here.

Just one look at those protesting gives a clear idea of the reform voter - not a group I would want to be associated with

Ah right
Sort of get you .
I'm not sure who I'm voting for ,
I just hope Labour pull their finger out ,and do what's necessary over the next 4 years .

We will still get migration - in fact migration through legal channels hugely outnumbers illegal routes. However, if you are applying for asylum, since brexit you need to physically be on our shores to do so and if you have no documents because you're escaping war or violence, you can't exactly arrive by plane or ferry so there is no choice now but to risk the small boat route. Hence small boat migration is caused by Brexit. The previous government opened up legal migration meaning about 500k extra people per year came in from 2021. They stopped free movement but started points based immigration and their families. These are the people who are visible to reformers. People who contribute and have been welcomed. Compare that to the 40k who come to the boats and you really should be looking at brexit as the single highest cause of immigration. Net immigration was ~200k per year prior to Brexit. After it has become 700k per year. But yeay Brexit!

You always had to be physically here to claim, hence the lorry routes. Do you remember those?

People hid in the back until there was suffocation and public outcry.

Yes I can identify with wanting to give a F off to middle class liberals and far left (people like Emily Maitlis/Rory Stewart and most of Labour). But the problem is that these people are incredibly arrogant whilst being terrible and incompetent at running the country such that we now have one of the highest energy costs in the world, open borders and peoples living standards are going backwards. You can blame the world economy etc but many countries (eg Poland, US) are doing much better. So Reform WOULD probably be better than the dross we've had for the past 20 years - they could hardly be worse.

We don’t have open borders.

Whether we have open borders or not is utterly irrelevant.

What is relevant is that a majority of the population believes that there has been too much immigration, there is too much immigration and that there is far too much illegal immigration especially of muslim extremists who are deeply misogynistic and despise our values.

Your choice, as somone who is not concerned, is whether to fight the majority (which, in my view, will either fail, or it will fail by driving the overton window ever further towards a genuine hard right / fascist party) or to work out how we can address the concerns of the majority without becoming despicable bigots lacking any and all compassion.

I was responding to a previous poster who claimed:

“we now have […] open borders…”

You dismiss open borders as irrelevant. If that were the case though, why are people claiming we have “open borders” and what do “closed borders” look like in their eyes ?