Children’s spaces

[VivaForever81]

Inspired by another thread, I’ll start by saying I do not think men have the right to use women only spaces.
I also believe that the current setup of men’s/womens/disabled toilets and changing rooms is safe for children.
In an ideal world I would prefer for anywhere that provides the use of public toilets to have to a unisex family facility with cubicles.
I don’t think that our current way of providing men’s/womens or disabled is safe for children.
I don’t think little girls out with their dad should have to go into the men’s, I don’t think it’s safe that boys once they get to 8 should go into the men’s alone and I don’t think it’s fair on those that are disabled have there facilities blocked up with parents and children.
what do others think, would you like to see a change?

Are you fucking kidding me? Should a mother out alone with her 8 year old son, send him into a mens' toilet on his own?!

They have toilets like this at work, it’s a much better idea.

Honestly, if the choice is between a 10 year old girl changing her period protection behind a locked door knowing another child is the other side of the locked door, or an 8 year old being sexually assaulted in the men’s, I know which I think is worse.

Unisex toilets have been shown to be less safe for women and girls. As in, it’s unlikely for a woman or girl to be attacked in a public facility, but when it does happen it’s much more likely to happen in a mixed sex space.

Yes. I think dd using the gents with her dad is fine. It's a quick walk past the urinals to the cubicles with parental supervision.

Here in Australia most places just have a family room with a changing area, breastfeeding space behind curtains, a toilet often with a child’s loo and adults in one large cubicle. They’re unisex.
Swimming pools also have large family changing rooms with cubicles big enough for about 3 people to comfortably change.

The best design I've seen was a large "open" space - no walls hiding the mirrors, sinks and dryers.

The cubicles were all floor to ceiling doors, in a U shape around the sink area down the middle.

Took up no more space than a usual set of loos, probably less because there was no wasted circulation space with pointless walls (washing your hands etc doesn't need to be private).

This was in a secondary school to prevent bullying - you were either in a cubicle or not. And because it was open to the common area, no hanging around. But it's really common around Europe.

Crossing the road is a risk but we don’t ban that. The risk is really low.

We do, however, install zebra crossings, pedestrian lights, footbridges and subways to minimise the risk. No-one is suggesting we ban public loos; just debating how the risks to children can be mitigated.

Not necessarily. Some men’s loos look grim and the sorts going in and out my son wouldn’t know how to manage that if anything bad happened. I wouldn’t send him in some grimy dark stinking toilet with horrible looking men with their hands down their pants (why do they do this?!).

im thinking a lot of people who say this don’t have boys and don’t think that they can be vulnerable just like girls.

I’ve never seen it and will always protect my son how I see fit. I think it’s a MN rule?

I worked in one of our local secondary schools that had that toilets design, and it was all open to the corridor as well, it worked really well! There was no way of hiding any bullying, abuse, or vandalism in those toilets.

It wasn't in the Stoke area, was it? I've never seen it elsewhere. They were also the staff and visitor toilets because they were suitably private when you were in a cubicle that it didn't matter. (One grubby school I visited, I was escorted to the grim toilet block because I didn't have a DBS check).

The same model in Europe was always spotlessly clean.

This is daft. No issue with primary age boys using the ladies with their mum. Everyone has their own cubicle, they pose no risk to the women or children in those spaces.
Most changing spaces have family areas.
Wouldn't take a boy over 8 into a communal womens changing area of course but ladies toilets pose no issue to anyone. I'd much rather see a ten year old boy in the ladies than have him sent to the men's alone.

Someone posted up post, who decided on 8 being the age that boys should use the men’s facilities alone?
Why is 8 considered old enough to protect yourself if needed.

It's standard to be honest. I work in a leisure centre and we have gents and ladies changing and a disabled that can used by either sex.

Children of 8 and above are supposed to go in the changing room of their own sex. Lots of parents ignore that rule and we often get complaints from women that there are 10 and 11yo boys in there. I would say most tolerate 8yo boys in the ladies.

Also children of 8 are allowed in the pool without adult supervision. I think the idea is by that age, children should have some sense and the ability to follow lifeguards instructions.

Children vary a lot at that age. DGS is small for his age and we have often at soft play or similar met other kids who are bigger than he is but actually much younger. Unless a child is very obviously much older than 8 I don't see how anyone is actually going to know.

Yes, although do we know that disabled toilets are currently being used by people who are "not disabled"? I mean, it's impossible to tell from just looking at people whether they need a disabled toilet or not.

My guess is it's less about being able to defend yourself and more that it's very unlikely at 8 that a boy has gone through puberty?

I don't know any 9, 10, 11, 12 or even 13 year olds who could defend themselves against an attack by a fully grown man.

I think changing rooms are different to toilets tbh, people often get fully naked in a communal changing room whereas that doesn’t happen in toilets except behind a locked door. I can see why women would have an issue stripping off with 8/9/10 year old boys watching, but I don’t see the same issue in a toilet.

Agreed!

No. There should be adequate ‘family’ loos which cover changing, mum+boy, and dad+daughter. And a separate wheelchair access one.
A ten year old lad shouldn’t be in the Ladies’ any more than his twin sister be in the Gents’.

The menstruation thing is important as well.
I think back to days out as a girl, and pestering Ma about the san towel machines, and yammering about their mysterious function. Once I started though, it was a very different matter. I wanted silence, and secrecy.
That was well over fifty years ago, and yet it appears things have become even more grim, more furtive, for the average girl.
It angers and saddens me greatly, but nevertheless we owe these girls the kindness to accommodate their needs as far as possible.
It’s not their fault their parents brought them up to feel furtive or dirty about menstruating.
Admitting boys to their possibly bleeding or distressed midst is a flipping outrage, not least because it’s yet more foregrounding of male rights at the expense of obvious female needs.

(Another thing we might consider, though God knows who’d take the work, is to bring back toilet attendants in public loos. A very civilising influence.
I guess candidates would come from only those groups most likely to experience abuse, even assault, in the job. )

Although I have frequently had to tell mothers that their 10 year son is not allowed in the ladies changing room. Let’s just say, they usually react pretty badly.

Risk of assault to girls and women is not the sole consideration.

Every user of a ladies toilet has Privacy. What other consideration could their be?! I've seen a pp mention girls on their period but unless they are changing their pads next to the sink what is the difference in having a 9 year old boy use a cubicle?!