Marriage/motherhood warning list

[Someoneshouldatoldme]

Based on many many threads here and my own lived experience, shouldn't we warn all daughters and women pre-marriage or motherhood so that they really know what they'regetting into? I'll list a few, feel free to add:

1. Don't have a child with ANYONE at all unless you know you can manage as a single parent

1. If your husband tells you they want a child and will look after them as well as you, assume they mean occasional fun times and some cooking. (If you're proven wrong, you'll be delighted)

1. Your husband might become your biggest problem once you are pregnant or with a child. Even the 'nicest' guys can (and many will) turn emotionally or physically abusive at this time. You might end up seriously hurt. Many will cheat.

1. Never assume his money is family money. He might pretend for years that it is, only for you to find out that it isnt.

Any others?

My learning is that a substantial minority of men are not what they seem. After some years they reveal their true selves and when they do, women can often think that they are dealing with a completely different person to the one they were in love with. Have very clear discussions so that work, children and finances are all fully transparent and workloads in all areas are fairly shared. If this cannot be achieved be brave enough to walk away.

Mm. I'm not entirely convinced 'besotted' is something to aim for. If a person is besotted with another, rather than having a healthy love and respect for them as an equal, it can say something about character than can be problematic. Bring besotted can be a sign of low self esteem in the besotted (You're so much above me) and an over focus that can lead to possessiveness, jealousy and sometimes be a burden on the other. There's also a danger that you've been placed on a pedestal that you can topple from as life changes you. Being deeply loved is a wonderful thing, but the ideal is that its reciprocal rather than flowing mainly in one direction.

Anyone going through the sort of experiences you want us to prepare them for would be distraught- cheating, disengagement, laziness, selfishness from a partner.
I don’t want this to be her very low bar expectation.

I am so sorry this has been your experience. It’s certainly not of my family, my husband’s family, or any of my friends.

I guess I am luckily that I don’t know anyone this has happened to, a bit like how you’ve been unlucky to know so many.

I don’t think I live in a bubble at all. I’ve met some selfish men and women at work (no idea how they conduct their family life though!), but luckily I don’t have to socialise with them. All the couple with children I know split everything fairly with no resentment.

I wouldn't know where to begin quantifying the amount of love I have for DP vs the love he has for me, and I think if you can quantify it, the relationship is probably quite terrible for at least one party.

Just a bizarre way of thinking to me.

Same. In my social circle, the norm is for parenthood to be an equally shared endeavour and for couples to actually like each other. My female friends don't seethe about their husbands to me, or even complain about them that much. My male friends aren't selfish twats.

Saying that always goes down like a lead balloon on these threads though, where posters are weirdly invested in a bunch of gendered cliches and insist they apply across the board.

Be wary of having children with someone who doesn't understand mental health difficulties, i should've realised that suffering from depression and having a child with someone who dumped his ex for feeling suicidal wasn't wise. My dd is a complete sweetheart though and my mh has been a lot better since being a single parent.

Well, we all wear seatbelts in a car and have safety instructions on a plane even though most of us never experience an accident.
We isolated for covid and watched the news constantly for information even though it was a minority who got seriously ill.

My point is marriage and motherhood should be looked at with the same objectivity as anything else in life. Is this for me? Do i know what im signing up for? Do i understand the disadvantage this puts me in and what can i do about it?
Your perfect world is what everyone should have access to.

That’s the big one for me, similarly: don’t stay in a relationship with someone who doesn’t act like housework is as much their responsability as yours. Not just doing it when you ask, but taking initiative, etc.and doing a proper job.

Oh and don’t stay with someone who leaves a mess in the loo.

If this is the case, most people will not be having children.
Everything in life comes with risk and I know several couples where the relationship has worked out. I totally understand the risks involved, I am a single parent and did it all with no support of any kind.
It's important not to be too cynical

To be clear, I don't think you need to be independently wealthy and have huge amounts of savings to have a child. But I do think its foolish to have a child if you expect to be wholly financially dependent on another person throughout the period you are raising children. Marriage gives you some legal protection against being thrown under a bus by someone in a divorce settlement but it doesn't protect you against being marginalised economically and losing the ability to support yourself in the future.

Everything life does come with risk. But there's a difference between the kind of risk which involves doing proper due diligence, asking sensible questions and making sure you have as much financial independence as possible to fall back on and the kind of risk which involves holding your nose, crossing your fingers and thinking it "might all work out".

I wear a seatbelt but I don't assume that all cars are dangerous, if I pick the one I'm in properly.

I'm aware that relationships can end badly but I don't assume all men are secretly selfish twats, if I pick the one to be in a relationship with properly.

You're preaching to the choir, anyway. For most of my 20s I decided marriage and motherhood wasn't going to be for me because I understood the disadvantages all too well (that still applies to motherhood). I absolutely looked at them both with the kind of objectivity you're talking about, and mostly decided I couldn't be bothered with them.

The thing with structural inequality is that it's all very well talking about it but no one is going to solve your individual situation on your behalf. If you don't want to bear the mental load or do the wifework or be a domestic skivvy or have a selfish twat as a husband then the only person who can possibly ensure that doesn't happen is you. None of it is inevitable - none of it applies to me or most of my friends. But I can't step into another woman's life and make sure her household chores are split 50/50.

No one is asking you to get personally involved.

This thread is for raising awareness. Its great you chose well. Many either dont know how to or only find out too late. Just because you have it good and you know it all, doesn't mean there arent others who might benefit.

Yes, as well as the "not all men" argument on a thread educating what to look for in men who are...(eyeroll)

That’s not how your list reads though. It’s not an objective watchlist, it’s a hazard warning of impending doom.

You are entitled to your opinion ❤️

Are you suggesting men don't go around saying phrases like "wifey material" and have their very open views on what they will and won't marry, shag, avoid?

Having to-d and fro-d with you on this, I should say that I TOTALLY understand your motivation, I just feel that because of what has happened to you, your approach isn’t balanced enough. But kudos for wanting to help others avoid what happened to you. 🩵

No, this thread is about blanket generalisations.

You have taken worst-case scenarios and used the worst type of men as examples, and presented structural inequality as the inevitable fate of all women because all men are selfish twats.

The women who've pointed out that it's in our power to choose men who aren't selfish twats have been called smug and lucky.

If you really think all men are selfish twats then the advice you should be giving young women is not to get into relationships with them at all.

I don’t think I made any reference to anything about that? Did you quote the wrong post?

Yes, we have power, but we dont know how to use it because cultural and societal norms still dictate what our role should be and how to behave. And many women dont know about red flags, entitlement, inequality inside the home etc. If i want to talk about it, i can. And i do because it is important. And i do realise there are amazing men out there where you and some other posters are. Maybe you can tell the rest of us where that wondeful place is and we can move there too?

Once you have children

Do. Not. Give. Up. Work. For. A. Partner. Male. Or. Female. Married. Or. Not. You. Must. Maintain. The. Possibilty. Of. Financial. Independence.

I can not say this loud or clear enough. This is my biggest single take away of 55 years of life and 30 ish years of work. If you want or need to, go part time, go very part time, but have something to build on if you need to become financially independent -not just partners/spouses leaving, but long term illness, disability and premature death are around every corner.

Only exception is if you have a private income that your partner can have no legal claim on (I’m not sure how this works in a marriage).

Who is this "we"?

I know how to use my power. Cultural and societal norms don't dictate anything to me. I know this is easier said than done but the process of unlearning those things is an essential part of growing up.

What I do know is that you can't unlearn them if you reinforce them - as you are doing - by repeating gendered cliches as if they're universally true and inevitable.

@CurlewKate I thought that but fell pregnant twice whilst taking the minipill absolutely perfectly. Both ended in miscarriage but we saw a consultant who diagnosed hyperfertility. Advice was for husband to have a vasectomy.

Don’t move in with, marry, or have children with a man who hasn’t lived alone (whether renting or mortgaged) for a long enough period that you’ve been able to witness them managing finances, maintaining a home, and doing all essential tasks for themselves to a good standard.

I thoroughly disagree with advice upthread about seeking a man with a higher income and more assets. The disparity will always be there, and if you split the crash back to what you can afford on your own will be even greater. Build and keep your own financial stability and seek a partner on an equal footing.

The vast majority of women who end up single mothers say they have no regrets because they have their children. But lots of them are leading very hard lives and the reality is that many of them would be better off mentally, emotionally, physically, financially, and socially, if they had never had them. Don’t have children just because it’s the done thing.

Some of the advice I've given my daughter...

> Learn to shut up and listen when men speak. Most times they are telling us who they are, but we are too busy listening to respond, blabbing or finishing their sentences to actually pay attention to what is /isn't being said.

>Watch how they disagree with you and everyone else. If you're always in agreement, someone lacks independent thought. If you can't disagree without anger and /or disrespect, run.

>Actions more than words. What he does and how he makes you feel will be far more useful than words.

>Trust your intuition. If your spirit is even slightly uneasy and nothing he does or says changes it, go. Even if the spirit is wrong - better safe than sorry.

>Whilst a man that earns well is important (contrary to popular opinion, love pays no bills), watch his generosity, not the bank balance. I've given her examples from the men around her that make it obvious they are always thinking of her and of ways to do something kind for her.

>As my grandmother taught all of us - a woman MUST ALWAYS have her own treasure chest. However you build it, it is a necessity. The last thing you want to do is to leave yourself without options.

>Financial independence is key and you decide what that looks like for you. Take time to forge a life you are happy living before you join income so if shit hits the fan, you're happy going back to it.

>Equity is more important than equality. Until men start having babies and all the vulnerabilities that come with that, you are not equal. Don't buy into the bullshit of having babies, paying half the bills, doing all the childcare, funding your own maternity leave or any of the other new age shit women have been hoodwinked into.

>Be sure you have similar values and ambitions for raising your children. Parenting with an opponent is a struggle.

>I'm sure we discuss / will discuss plenty more, but like men, have your own best interest at heart. You teach people how to treat you. Choose wisely, strive for the best relationship you can have, but always stay prepared.