Marriage/motherhood warning list

[Someoneshouldatoldme]

Based on many many threads here and my own lived experience, shouldn't we warn all daughters and women pre-marriage or motherhood so that they really know what they'regetting into? I'll list a few, feel free to add:

1. Don't have a child with ANYONE at all unless you know you can manage as a single parent

1. If your husband tells you they want a child and will look after them as well as you, assume they mean occasional fun times and some cooking. (If you're proven wrong, you'll be delighted)

1. Your husband might become your biggest problem once you are pregnant or with a child. Even the 'nicest' guys can (and many will) turn emotionally or physically abusive at this time. You might end up seriously hurt. Many will cheat.

1. Never assume his money is family money. He might pretend for years that it is, only for you to find out that it isnt.

Any others?

Agree. These early / mid 40s pregnancies - you will be in peri menopause with small children! Funding university when you want to slow down at work.

I felt peak of health at 42 - it all goes very weird physically and mentally from 45 onwards.

@TheaBrandt1 And what if you don't meet your husband until your mid/late thirties? Life isn't always about ideal scenarios. Best to wait and have children with a good man than rush and have kids with a bad one.

Absolutely!

There’s more than one way to live a life.

A bit depressing and cynical though…

Is that worse than being in peri with teenagers? Do people always have a choice? Depends on when you meet someone or if you have fertility issues.
I think/hope university will be much less popular when it finally sinks in that it’s not worth the debt unless it’s specific subjects you’re reading. There is no prestige or golden job guarantee anymore so why not get real life paid work and build up!

Then you have kids later obviously.

However most women I know who rushed in as it were - getting pg very fast - have tended to be older with less reproductive time left.

If I'd met DH later would have probably had kids sooner into relationship - not waited ten years - and if we'd been late 30s/early 40s we'd have had to think hard and quckily about if we had kids at all.

But when you do meet early there's a lot of social pressure to wait and wait - as you are too young.

If you do then suddenly it will flip to you are too old - there about 6 months and when that is varies depending on who you talk to when it's a ideal time for a woman to have kids. There is no mythical ideal time - just as prepared as you can be.

I'm not sure I belive it - but right wing sphere has theme that many people - men and women are "accidentally childless" - as they missed the boat left it to late - I'm skeptical as can't help thinking if they wanted kids they'd have priotised it before it was too late but then men don't get the too late messaging that women do so maybe it does apply to them.

He's only 12. Wouldn't call that a man yet. And his comment wasn't about 50/50 shared load. It was a bad joke he'd heard about holocaust. So not really about this subject at all, but insightful in the way that no matter what we do as parents, the environment also shapes them and he had noticed that.

Unfortunately on dating threads I see so many women set the terms the wrong way round from the very start, cooing over traditional gender roles without thinking ahead to how those will manifest in the future. If you insist on men being "providers" and "protectors" then don't be surprised if they prioritise going out to earn money over keeping the house tidy.

Anyone who's invested in traditional gender roles - male or female - is a huge red flag. That's my advice to anyone in the dating market.

@gannett Totally agree.
Women are often happy to marry the man with The Big Job and give up paid work, but then the housework and childcare falls to them whilst he is out working 24/7 to provide them with a nice lifestyle. She doesn't like it so either leaves or, more likely, stays but unhappy. Then he leaves anyway down the line. Or cheats.

@gannett

Unfortunately on dating threads I see so many women set the terms the wrong way round from the very start, cooing over traditional gender roles without thinking ahead to how those will manifest in the future. If you insist on men being "providers" and "protectors" then don't be surprised if they prioritise going out to earn money over keeping the house tidy

Yes. And it really doesn’t help that “willingness to pay for things while dating” is seen as some benchmark of a man’s marriage worthiness.

No one wants a cocklodger or a tightwad but someone who insists on paying for everything is likely to be someone who wants you to “earn” that and set terms.

Maybe another warning should be dont work too much if you are a a mother and you will be expected to provide up to full time childcare for as many grandchildren as you have to do it for, and make sure it is 100% the same for each grandchild or your children with go no contact with you

I disagree. I think the expectation that women have to do everything that is necessary and men only what they fancy and when, makes these issues more entrenched, not less.

What I would warn and I think is what you're suffering from is that a baby can implode even the most stable, loving, kind and equitable of relationships, and in a way that if far more detrimental to the woman then the man.

In my experience of 32 years of men. If they had to do 50-50 care and House work, they just wouldn’t have children. They don’t want them enough to make that level of sacrifice.
But they won’t tell you that until after they’ve arrived.
We already see that when they’re not Expected to do 50-50 and actually all they’re expected to do is give up their weekends and they still don’t know.

Well said.

The knowledge that life and love won't always sunshine and rainbows is fine, but I don't think imparting this level of cynicism is particularly helpful or healthy. Not all men are awful creatures who can't be trusted.

I don't want my daughter to grow up expecting the worst her entire life, what a miserable existence that would be.

Surely you would want your daughter to make informed choices based on reality?

The reality of motherhood and what it means for the individual is not discussed enough because it is culturally expected and ingrained in us that we are the bearers of responsibility if all else fails. Mothers very rarely abandon their children if the marriage falls apart. Dads do and even if they might not properly abandon, they might do casual disney-parenting or are not the one who stays at home with a sick child or juggles dinners in between homework and clubs and laundry. Some dads do, but way too many still dont.

@Noelshighflyingturds

In my experience of 32 years of men. If they had to do 50-50 care and House work, they just wouldn’t have children. They don’t want them enough to make that level of sacrifice.

If that's true (and I don't think it is)... all the more reason to raise children solo, to be honest. I don't see the point of having a man around if he doesn't accept any responsibility for childcare and the upkeep of a home. If I'm making all the money and doing all the domestic work there is literally no point to having a man. (Unless you count sex).

But I don't take as cynical a view of this as you. In my experience most men (younger men, anyway) understand that they need to make some concessions to domestic/childcare labour as the price of doing business. Where they really fall down is in the expectation that you (the woman) will be the "project manager" of all this and do the thinking and give them instructions that they follow before going back to their lives. A man who is prepared not just to chase a hoover around once a week and take the bins out but can actually think about what the household needs too is like gold-dust.

It's still an uphill struggle and there's still a long way to go. But I'd still take this over a "bring home the bacon" bloke who thinks his responsibilities start and end with making money. There's no room for negotiation with these types of men and once they are paying for everything you're trapped.

Yes, making sure she knows her worth, teaching her to make good choices and be sensible with money so she can be financially stable, and to expect a certain level of respect from people - of course.

But as a few previous posters have said, I think building our kids up to expect their partner or child's father to be useless, lazy and uncaring kind of normalises that to an extent. We should be using our experiences to teach them to expect better in the first place, not to prepare them for when it inevitably all goes wrong.

Well the whole point of this thread is awareness, that if nothing changes and these things don't get talked about..well, nothing changes.

I'd love to see some sort of legal "conveyancing" process before marriage, rather than just being asked what his middle name and DOB are and what his dad's occupation is/was when applying for marriage licence. I find it amazing the level of checks needed to buy a house but to marry someone it is basically none.

I'd include

Credit rating/ bankrupty check (you take on there debt when you marry so you sure as hell should know what it is).

Check for previous divorces

Clare's law (although preferably much early in the relationship).

Check for any children and CMS check, do they have any claims against them, are they paying.

Compulsory couples counselling (my understanding is that this is standard in some religions).

I know it's not very romantic, but if it was compulsory then it would be out of the individuals hands and just something you cracked on with.

Always maintain financial independence

Make sure you are on the same page on education,religion, parenting style, house chores split

To be honest I think whst is happening is there is less acceptance of women being passive. You should be teaching your daughters how to live and succeed in the world. At lot of women in this thread seem to think the outcome of there lives is their husbands responsibility its not. If the biggest lessons are to make sure he cleans to your not parenting right. Also tbh high income people at least 97% marry other high earning people. They also marry later divorce less. Its very reasonable to expect a single women in England to establish herself before marriage. In a job and then have a plan about money when she's not. It can't be left to your husband to set out your finacial life.

The women on this thread are fully aware that marrying a man showing undesirable traits will massively negatively impact their lives. It happens every day.

So they are trying to make sure those red flags are noted. Those of us who know better have taught our daughters to note these red flags.

It's great I have not seen anybody saying or implying that you need a man to be happy and successful and haven't seen even a hint (maybe I missed it) that a woman shouldn't have a career and be able to look after herself. After all, the vast majority of women throughout history have always worked for money, only a very small group of very privileged women ever stayed home, not working, so going to work for cash is natural and well established for women.

But it's also great that we are acknowledging reality - humans are naturally drawn to pair bonds, children and families. Some aren't, most are. Knowing you don't need a man won't stop the majority of women from considering a monogamous relationship with children as something they may desire.

So yeah, good thread of practical tips for women who are considering marriage and children.

Compulsory couples counselling puts battered, raped and abused women back in the room with their abuser, so a hard no to that.

It should be six months of compulsory couples counselling before marriage though.