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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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10
MyGreyStork · 30/08/2025 11:09

ItsHellOrHighwater · 30/08/2025 03:18

It is relevant, it shows that he was mentally ill. Mentally ill people definitely shouldn’t have access to guns.

So people that are trans are mentally ill?

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 11:10

Digidestined · 30/08/2025 10:22

Oh dear. Someone is trying to play the oppressed feminist. I'm not manipulating anyone and giving a warning of unpleasant content is in no way authoritarian. No demands or orders have been given.

They are not lies about FWR, I have engaged there on and off over the years and vehemently disagree that there is compassion for trans people and no anti trans rhetoric. Some of the statements made there are downright disgusting and I've also seen plenty of misogyny from the so called feminists towards other women who don't agree with them or toe the party line. The board has a reputation both here and in other online spaces, it didn't get that from being compassionate and reasonable. Many feminists want nothing to do with the brand of feminism that exists there. Earlier on in this thread we saw a poster be hounded in the classic FWR style whilst stating "I don't understand what you're saying or what your problem is, leave me alone". It's the dogged determination to keep hammering your point that is classic of that board, like when you started banging on about misogyny and toilets and a list of their things I never even mentioned and are irrelevant to the shooting.

No agenda here, though I understand you are desperate to make out there is one. Just pointing out your agenda to make this about transgender people when mass shootings are a gun problem, mental health problem, and a problem decades old in America that they never learn from.

Right I agree that sorting out the gun laws would absolutely reduce the mass shootings, but there's not an icicles hope in hell of that happening in the USA is there?

And WHY NOT? It's the root of the fucking problem! Get rid of every transgender person on the planet and there will still be two mass shootings a week. Still lots of dead children. So I and many other people really do think gender identity is irrelevant here because he shouldn't have been able to buy a gun in the first place, because he was violent, because he was mentally ill, because no one should have guns. just throwing your hands up and saying 'well we can't change the gun attitude so let's jump on something else' is ridiculous! They need to actually do something to protect the children in the US!

Playing the oppressed feminist.

Not misogynistic at all, no siree!

I'm not manipulating anyone

Yes you were, it was very transparent.

and giving a warning of unpleasant content is in no way authoritarian. No demands or orders have been given.

You told readers to stay away for the sake of their faith in humanity because apparently according to you FWR (that would be the Feminism and Women's Rights discussion board for anyone in doubt) is "anti-trans" and that people shouldn't go see for themselves. That's quite authoritarian, it was also an outright lie.

They are not lies about FWR, I have engaged there on and off over the years and vehemently disagree that there is compassion for trans people and no anti trans rhetoric.

They absolutely were lies, and there is plenty of compassion for, in particular, young trans identifying people. There is no anti-trans rhetoric, just facts and resistance to predatory males.

People can go see for themselves.

Some of the statements made there are downright disgusting

Those "disgusting" statements would be those which correctly sex trans identified males. Acknowledging biological reality is not a transphobic, it is actually very important - especially in a health care setting, wrong sex treatment in a hospital can be fatal. This is something that TRAs do not like pointed out to them, which in my opinion shows up the inherent misogyny. They don't actually care about the health of trans identifying people (they really, really don't care about the trans identifying females, except where they can be used as a prop for the ideology).

"Man" is not a slur.

I've also seen plenty of misogyny from the so called feminists towards other women who don't agree with them or toe the party line.

That's funny because I see a lot of misogyny directed at the women in FWR.
What you mean is when a woman has internalised her own misogyny and is fawning for this men's rights movement while simultaneously throwing all women (including herself) under the bus, people call her a transmaiden. Well it might be rude, but it is true. And sometimes a poster says they are a woman, but from their posting style and what they say it seems very likely they might be male, so yes people do sometimes wonder aloud if those posters are male. Often we will never know, sometimes a poster will let slip that they are in fact a trans identified male. So again, it might be a bit rude, but posters have been proven right on that one before.

The board has a reputation both here and in other online spaces, it didn't get that from being compassionate and reasonable.

You mean reddit and other online spaces like twitter, those bastions of feminism? Reddit where women's boards and posts are removed. Where detransitioners and trans identifying people who don't subscribe to the insanity of gender ideology are vilified by their own community? Twitter where posts end up recorded on the TERF is a Slur website? Right then.

In comparison to MN FWR where open discussion is now allowed, and people don't fling abuse, rape and death threats at women and trans identified posters who don't subscribe to gender ideology.

Many feminists want nothing to do with the brand of feminism that exists there.

And I hope it keeps fine for them. However, I don't think feminism which centres male people is actually feminism. Many feminists want nothing to do with that brand of "feminism" either, because we are the sort of feminists who actually centre the females of our species.

Earlier on in this thread we saw a poster be hounded in the classic FWR style whilst stating "I don't understand what you're saying or what your problem is, leave me alone".

Where? Do you mean my conversation with @TheOtherBennetGirl which I think we both have agreed was constructive and mutually respectful?

It's the dogged determination to keep hammering your point that is classic of that board, like when you started banging on about misogyny and toilets and a list of their things I never even mentioned and are irrelevant to the shooting.

Dogged determination to keep hammering my point. Well they are all informative pieces of the greater understanding of the feminist position. I think they are relevant to the discussion of this recent school shooting, I have explained my reasons why - namely early recognition of possible mental health or deeper issues, which in this particular case is relevant and might have helped prevent this tragedy from happening. The zeitgeist of the gender ideology movement has successfully managed to make people completely afraid to talk about the issues inherent in this ideology, thus we had a climate where we could not address issues that may be present in some trans identifying people, because anything vaguely negative or shedding light on possible problems has been viewed as "literal violence" and a direct attack on every trans person.

It's like an extreme religious belief that allows absolutely no dissenting voice, no matter how polite or gently spoken. A lot of people don't like that approach, it is authoritarian and thought terminating on top of all the other issues it throws up. There should be no sacred castes. We know from our history that sacred castes have hidden multitudes of problems. It's one of the reasons we have safeguarding.

No agenda here, though I understand you are desperate to make out there is one.

Well you clearly do have one since you are trying to redirect people away from reading - READING! - other perspectives. Such a dangerous business that, reading other perspectives. You wouldn't want people to come to logical conclusions when presented with facts now would you, that would be awful!

Just pointing out your agenda to make this about transgender people when mass shootings are a gun problem, mental health problem, and a problem decades old in America that they never learn from.

And I have agreed that this is a gun problem which is decades old in the USA, and also that it is a mental health problem. What I also said was that trans identifying young people are often vulnerable, have mental health issues, and often have things that have caused deeper rooted issues - particularly young gay men trying to escape their sexuality due to homophobia, and autistic girls trying to identify out of the realities of their sexed bodies or sexual abuse.

Right I agree that sorting out the gun laws would absolutely reduce the mass shootings, but there's not an icicles hope in hell of that happening in the USA is there?

And WHY NOT? It's the root of the fucking problem!

Well I don't know do I? How do you untwist America from their constitutional right to bear arms? WHY CAPITALS AT ME HERE? I agreed that sorting out gun laws would massively help, what more do you want from me, it's not like I can go over there and single handedly convince and confiscate all firearms is it? I honestly wouldn't know where to start from a cultural point of view anyway, I'm Scottish so guns are the sole proviso of farms, competition shooters, and hunters here, and those are tightly restricted with the ability to remove licenses for many reasons, mental health concerns being one such reason. Carrying deadly weapons around as a matter of course is just completely alien to me.

Get rid of every transgender person on the planet and there will still be two mass shootings a week.

Where in any of my posts have I suggested I want to "get rid of every transgender person"? That is ridiculous in the extreme. This is a manipulative TRA tactic though, can't say anything vaguely negative about even a violent trans identified male, or the TRAs will shout "TRANS ERASURE! LITERAL GENOCIDE!" Not enough eye rolls in the world.

Still lots of dead children.

Yes but recognition of mental health issues early (which should IMO include any young person with a trans identity, for the reasons given above - twice now!), will help reduce the deaths of children by school shooters.

So I and many other people really do think gender identity is irrelevant here because he shouldn't have been able to buy a gun in the first place, because he was violent, because he was mentally ill, because no one should have guns.

I agree with this "he shouldn't have been able to buy a gun in the first place, because he was violent, because he was mentally ill, because no one should have guns" but again I think his falling into the gender ideology was an early indicator of his mental health issues, it seems like that was known way before any of the violent fantasies we now know he has after the fact. You seem determined to ignore that.

just throwing your hands up and saying 'well we can't change the gun attitude so let's jump on something else' is ridiculous!

Jeso woman, I am not saying that at all! I'm saying, as have others that the USA and gun laws are so entwined I don't know how you untangle them from each other. As it stands there's not an icicles hope in hell that you, me, or anyone else is going to be able to achieve that goal right now. I can't predict the future, maybe at some point (hopefully soon!) the USA as a whole will somehow realise that without tighter firearms laws, this problem of gun violence will continue to perpetuate itself. I mean it might seem self evident to everyone else, you and I included, but I just don't know what to tell you mate, I'm not an American.

They need to actually do something to protect the children in the US!

And I agree with you. I think part of that protection should also focus on early mental health intervention for children who have been sucked in by the harmful gender ideology. In regards to preventing future violence I think that particular focus should be be given to the trans identifying male children, because we know that males as a sex class are the ones who carry out the majority of violent and sexual crimes, and because of the inherent misogyny of gender ideology which has an overlap with incel culture. Another violent male group.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 11:26

Digidestined · 30/08/2025 10:36

Actually it's quite clearly you that has an agenda.

Shoe horning TERF is a slur.com, cis is a slur, single sex spaces, TRAs and the usual prison statistics and misrepresented Swiss study on transgender criminality into a thread about school shootings and the US gun culture.

You admit we can't do anything about the gun culture and therefore all the other mass shootings that occur so we should just focus on the transgender shooters instead to...what? Stop the five that happened and ignore the other 39 because nothing can be done? I really don't think that's what this thread is supposed to be about. It's about the US failing to take action to protect children AGAIN.

But sure, plough on with your agenda whilst claiming any one else who doesn't agree with you has one.

Edited

Actually it's quite clearly you that has an agenda.

Yes I do have an agenda. My agenda is advocating for protections for women and children. I am a feminist. I've not hidden that at all, I'm perfectly upfront about it. I would hope as well, that rational people will be able to see that I am not without compassion for these trans identifying children. I do think they have been sold a harmful lie.

Shoe horning TERF is a slur.com, cis is a slur, single sex spaces, TRAs and the usual prison statistics

Shoe horning. Uh-huh. You don't like having sunlight thrown on those things at all do you, those things that never happen? Those things that are very, very male.

and misrepresented Swiss study on transgender criminality into a thread about school shootings and the US gun culture.

Where? What Swiss study on transgender criminality? That wasn't one of mine, I think I've missed it, if you could point it out to me I'd appreciate it because I'd like to read it!

You admit we can't do anything about the gun culture and therefore all the other mass shootings that occur so we should just focus on the transgender shooters instead to...what? Stop the five that happened and ignore the other 39 because nothing can be done?

And again no that is not what I said. Can you read? Where (with quotes please!) have I said we "should just focus on the transgender (not a word I used anyway) shooters?" Where have I suggested ignoring the other school shootings perpetrated by other males?

You can try and misrepresent what I've said and put words in my mouth that I haven't "spoken", but people can go back and read my posts and see clearly that this is not what I've said in any way shape or form.

I really don't think that's what this thread is supposed to be about. It's about the US failing to take action to protect children AGAIN.
But sure, plough on with your agenda whilst claiming any one else who doesn't agree with you has one.

You seem determined to ignore any connection with trans identifying males, you also seem determined to smear FWR and feminists like me, trying to manipulate people away from doing their own reading and drawing their own conclusions. That is an agenda. That is a TRA agenda.

I think you'll find the only person on this thread I've accused of having an agenda is you, and I've explained why multiple times. Others have disagreed with my point of view and I've not said they have an agenda have I? I actually had a lovely conversation with @TheOtherBennetGirl earlier, and I think she may have started from the position of the "other side" as it were, and we've been very civil with each other. I think that's because we are both discussing the issues we have discussed in good faith. Can't say the same for you.

Neither has TheOtherBennetGirl been denigrating FWR either, you know the PRO-WOMEN'S board here on Mumsnet, or told outright lies about that board, also unlike you.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 11:33

MyGreyStork · 30/08/2025 11:09

So people that are trans are mentally ill?

What do you call a rejection of reality and the belief in something totally and easily disprovable? Biological sex is real, no one has ever changed their sex from one to another because it is not possible. Some trans identifying people truly believe they have changed sex, or at least say they do India Willoughby and his "cervix" for example. He says he has literally changed sex and is now a woman.

Do you not see any possibility of mental health issues with trans identifying people? Just not possible for them to have those sorts of issues is it?

Do you not see the similarities between gender ideology and those who suffer from anorexia and are sure they are fat?

Do you not see any similarities with gender ideology and other mental health issues where a total rejection of reality in favour of a complete fantasy only present in their head and not observable fact as far as anyone else is concerned?

It's not always a mental health issue, sometimes it's for other reasons too. I have gone through those reasons a couple of times in my other posts.

RingoJuice · 30/08/2025 11:38

Digidestined · 30/08/2025 10:22

Oh dear. Someone is trying to play the oppressed feminist. I'm not manipulating anyone and giving a warning of unpleasant content is in no way authoritarian. No demands or orders have been given.

They are not lies about FWR, I have engaged there on and off over the years and vehemently disagree that there is compassion for trans people and no anti trans rhetoric. Some of the statements made there are downright disgusting and I've also seen plenty of misogyny from the so called feminists towards other women who don't agree with them or toe the party line. The board has a reputation both here and in other online spaces, it didn't get that from being compassionate and reasonable. Many feminists want nothing to do with the brand of feminism that exists there. Earlier on in this thread we saw a poster be hounded in the classic FWR style whilst stating "I don't understand what you're saying or what your problem is, leave me alone". It's the dogged determination to keep hammering your point that is classic of that board, like when you started banging on about misogyny and toilets and a list of their things I never even mentioned and are irrelevant to the shooting.

No agenda here, though I understand you are desperate to make out there is one. Just pointing out your agenda to make this about transgender people when mass shootings are a gun problem, mental health problem, and a problem decades old in America that they never learn from.

Right I agree that sorting out the gun laws would absolutely reduce the mass shootings, but there's not an icicles hope in hell of that happening in the USA is there?

And WHY NOT? It's the root of the fucking problem! Get rid of every transgender person on the planet and there will still be two mass shootings a week. Still lots of dead children. So I and many other people really do think gender identity is irrelevant here because he shouldn't have been able to buy a gun in the first place, because he was violent, because he was mentally ill, because no one should have guns. just throwing your hands up and saying 'well we can't change the gun attitude so let's jump on something else' is ridiculous! They need to actually do something to protect the children in the US!

You’ll get absolutely nothing done with a maximalist position on the 2nd Amendment. Even if you personally believe nobody but hunters/police officers/active military members/etc should have guns, it’s not going to happen unless you literally go George Washington II and shred the Constitution.

So instead, we have to do things like gun licenses—keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and mentally ill people.

Actually I do believe that confiscation of unlicensed guns leads to drops in urban gun violence. Don’t throw up your hands and say this stuff is impossible, because it’s not.

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2025 11:43

The gun laws are the first thing of course. But they seem determined not to address this and their commitment to gun culture is driven by entrenched cultural ideas that we in the uk don't understand, much less can persuade them to change.

The other thing is very poor mental health and I wonder how it has gotten quite this bad? The trans identification in this case is, I suspect, further manifestation of serious mental health issues.

I don't know what went wrong for this individual but it would be worth trying to understand. Unfortunately right now all of these issues are deeply politicised and it seems well nigh impossible to have productive conversation about them.

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2025 11:44

RingoJuice · 30/08/2025 11:38

You’ll get absolutely nothing done with a maximalist position on the 2nd Amendment. Even if you personally believe nobody but hunters/police officers/active military members/etc should have guns, it’s not going to happen unless you literally go George Washington II and shred the Constitution.

So instead, we have to do things like gun licenses—keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and mentally ill people.

Actually I do believe that confiscation of unlicensed guns leads to drops in urban gun violence. Don’t throw up your hands and say this stuff is impossible, because it’s not.

I agree. I wonder about things like drastically increasing the cost of ammunition and other smaller changes that could act as a deterrent for crimes like this.

MyGreyStork · 30/08/2025 11:56

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 11:33

What do you call a rejection of reality and the belief in something totally and easily disprovable? Biological sex is real, no one has ever changed their sex from one to another because it is not possible. Some trans identifying people truly believe they have changed sex, or at least say they do India Willoughby and his "cervix" for example. He says he has literally changed sex and is now a woman.

Do you not see any possibility of mental health issues with trans identifying people? Just not possible for them to have those sorts of issues is it?

Do you not see the similarities between gender ideology and those who suffer from anorexia and are sure they are fat?

Do you not see any similarities with gender ideology and other mental health issues where a total rejection of reality in favour of a complete fantasy only present in their head and not observable fact as far as anyone else is concerned?

It's not always a mental health issue, sometimes it's for other reasons too. I have gone through those reasons a couple of times in my other posts.

No I don’t think any of that. But you clearly think they are mentally ill, we get it! You can stop banging on about it. It’s boring.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 12:15

MyGreyStork · 30/08/2025 11:56

No I don’t think any of that. But you clearly think they are mentally ill, we get it! You can stop banging on about it. It’s boring.

So you don't want to answer any of my questions then?

Alright so you think trans identified people are somehow totally immune to any mental health issues or other deeper issues that effect other human beings?

What is it about a having a trans identity that shields them from these issues in your opinion?

You can disagree with me and you can find me as boring as you like, but no I won't stop "banging on" about it.

I actually do care about trans identifying children and think they have been sold a lie by an ideology that is harmful to them in multiple ways.

I think that gender ideology is actually mentally harmful to people, living with such cognitive dissonance (reality vs belief) and having your entire identity hinge on other peoples "perception" of you as the opposite sex (or a well meaning lie that they perceive you as the opposite sex) is almost certain to cause mental health issues.

In regards to this thread, mental health issues are one of the reasons why school shootings happen, these shooters are not mentally healthy people, they are clearly disturbed.

This particular shooter was also mentally ill (because no mentally healthy person commits these sort of violent crimes), and his trans identity could have been an early indicator of those mental health issues. If people (collectively) had been allowed to recognise a fall into gender ideology as a possible early indicator that this young person had mental health issues, he might have been given appropriate help and early intervention, it is possible that this tragedy could have been prevented.

Unfortunately a lot of people have been terrified out of thinking too much about this issue, because they are told they are horrible right wing bigots, transphobes, racist, homophobic and fascist. People have been heavy handily discouraged in various ways from talking about the issues around gender ideology.

If people are not allowed to recognise possible problem areas, including any leaning towards extreme ideologies such as gender or incel culture, we can't give them appropriate help and support. We then can't really address why the problems occurred when they inevitably make an appearance can we? No sacred castes.

Digidestined · 30/08/2025 12:18

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 11:26

Actually it's quite clearly you that has an agenda.

Yes I do have an agenda. My agenda is advocating for protections for women and children. I am a feminist. I've not hidden that at all, I'm perfectly upfront about it. I would hope as well, that rational people will be able to see that I am not without compassion for these trans identifying children. I do think they have been sold a harmful lie.

Shoe horning TERF is a slur.com, cis is a slur, single sex spaces, TRAs and the usual prison statistics

Shoe horning. Uh-huh. You don't like having sunlight thrown on those things at all do you, those things that never happen? Those things that are very, very male.

and misrepresented Swiss study on transgender criminality into a thread about school shootings and the US gun culture.

Where? What Swiss study on transgender criminality? That wasn't one of mine, I think I've missed it, if you could point it out to me I'd appreciate it because I'd like to read it!

You admit we can't do anything about the gun culture and therefore all the other mass shootings that occur so we should just focus on the transgender shooters instead to...what? Stop the five that happened and ignore the other 39 because nothing can be done?

And again no that is not what I said. Can you read? Where (with quotes please!) have I said we "should just focus on the transgender (not a word I used anyway) shooters?" Where have I suggested ignoring the other school shootings perpetrated by other males?

You can try and misrepresent what I've said and put words in my mouth that I haven't "spoken", but people can go back and read my posts and see clearly that this is not what I've said in any way shape or form.

I really don't think that's what this thread is supposed to be about. It's about the US failing to take action to protect children AGAIN.
But sure, plough on with your agenda whilst claiming any one else who doesn't agree with you has one.

You seem determined to ignore any connection with trans identifying males, you also seem determined to smear FWR and feminists like me, trying to manipulate people away from doing their own reading and drawing their own conclusions. That is an agenda. That is a TRA agenda.

I think you'll find the only person on this thread I've accused of having an agenda is you, and I've explained why multiple times. Others have disagreed with my point of view and I've not said they have an agenda have I? I actually had a lovely conversation with @TheOtherBennetGirl earlier, and I think she may have started from the position of the "other side" as it were, and we've been very civil with each other. I think that's because we are both discussing the issues we have discussed in good faith. Can't say the same for you.

Neither has TheOtherBennetGirl been denigrating FWR either, you know the PRO-WOMEN'S board here on Mumsnet, or told outright lies about that board, also unlike you.

Actually I'm not a TRA and I am a firm believer in single sex spaces and third spaces for safety and dignity for all. The disgusting statements I refer to in FWR are not calling someone a man, of course man is not a slur don't be ridiculous! It's the comments calling them mutilated, sick, painting them all as sex offenders etc. The Swiss study is the study that everyone claims proved that trans women retain a male pattern criminality, the fact you alluded to in your post. The study author has publicly stated that the findings have been misrepresented and the study report itself found that to be true in only one of two groups of trans women. For some reason the decades they transitioned in made a difference to their outcomes. This is how you are detailing a thread about school shootings into one about gender ideology, can you not see that? This conversation is literally that in action!

I am very against misrepresenting minorities as dangerous groups because of the actions of a few in that minority and that is very much what happens with transgender people here on MN. It's not dissimilar to the distrust of Muslims and rampant Islamophobia that came about after the terrorist attacks in the naughties. It's wrong and it's dehumanising and no amount of saying "well it's rude but it's right" makes it ok.

MyGreyStork · 30/08/2025 12:20

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 12:15

So you don't want to answer any of my questions then?

Alright so you think trans identified people are somehow totally immune to any mental health issues or other deeper issues that effect other human beings?

What is it about a having a trans identity that shields them from these issues in your opinion?

You can disagree with me and you can find me as boring as you like, but no I won't stop "banging on" about it.

I actually do care about trans identifying children and think they have been sold a lie by an ideology that is harmful to them in multiple ways.

I think that gender ideology is actually mentally harmful to people, living with such cognitive dissonance (reality vs belief) and having your entire identity hinge on other peoples "perception" of you as the opposite sex (or a well meaning lie that they perceive you as the opposite sex) is almost certain to cause mental health issues.

In regards to this thread, mental health issues are one of the reasons why school shootings happen, these shooters are not mentally healthy people, they are clearly disturbed.

This particular shooter was also mentally ill (because no mentally healthy person commits these sort of violent crimes), and his trans identity could have been an early indicator of those mental health issues. If people (collectively) had been allowed to recognise a fall into gender ideology as a possible early indicator that this young person had mental health issues, he might have been given appropriate help and early intervention, it is possible that this tragedy could have been prevented.

Unfortunately a lot of people have been terrified out of thinking too much about this issue, because they are told they are horrible right wing bigots, transphobes, racist, homophobic and fascist. People have been heavy handily discouraged in various ways from talking about the issues around gender ideology.

If people are not allowed to recognise possible problem areas, including any leaning towards extreme ideologies such as gender or incel culture, we can't give them appropriate help and support. We then can't really address why the problems occurred when they inevitably make an appearance can we? No sacred castes.

Edited

You’re mistaken. I already said no, I don’t think any of that. But let me repeat myself a second time, I disagree with everything you said. What more is there to say.

Fangisnotacoward · 30/08/2025 12:21

I think Sandy Hook was the moment the US crossed the Rubicon with gun control.

Nothing will change

Tiredofwhataboutery · 30/08/2025 12:24

MyGreyStork · 30/08/2025 11:09

So people that are trans are mentally ill?

I don’t think it necessarily follows that Trans people are mentally ill. I think sometimes people who are mentally ill get swept up in trans ideaology. This is the issue with an affirmation first healthcare model.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 12:43

Digidestined · 30/08/2025 12:18

Actually I'm not a TRA and I am a firm believer in single sex spaces and third spaces for safety and dignity for all. The disgusting statements I refer to in FWR are not calling someone a man, of course man is not a slur don't be ridiculous! It's the comments calling them mutilated, sick, painting them all as sex offenders etc. The Swiss study is the study that everyone claims proved that trans women retain a male pattern criminality, the fact you alluded to in your post. The study author has publicly stated that the findings have been misrepresented and the study report itself found that to be true in only one of two groups of trans women. For some reason the decades they transitioned in made a difference to their outcomes. This is how you are detailing a thread about school shootings into one about gender ideology, can you not see that? This conversation is literally that in action!

I am very against misrepresenting minorities as dangerous groups because of the actions of a few in that minority and that is very much what happens with transgender people here on MN. It's not dissimilar to the distrust of Muslims and rampant Islamophobia that came about after the terrorist attacks in the naughties. It's wrong and it's dehumanising and no amount of saying "well it's rude but it's right" makes it ok.

Actually I'm not a TRA and I am a firm believer in single sex spaces and third spaces for safety and dignity for all.

Really? Could have fooled me with that "FWR is anti-trans" lie.

The disgusting statements I refer to in FWR are not calling someone a man, of course man is not a slur don't be ridiculous! It's the comments calling them mutilated,

Often when mutilation is talked about it is in regards to the literal mutilation of healthy children's bodies, and the sterilisation of children too.

sick, painting them all as sex offenders etc.

But this is an outright lie! This is never said on FWR. We do however recognise that there are an awful lot of predatory males who gleefully jumped on the opening gender ideology gave them. How else do you account for the sexual assaults and rapes that have been visited on women by sex offender men who are trans identified?

Predatory men, you understand, not all trans people, just the predatory men.

The Swiss study is the study that everyone claims proved that trans women retain a male pattern criminality, the fact you alluded to in your post.

Aha! I am with you now. "For some reason the decades they transitioned in made a difference to their outcomes" could that be accounted for in the fact that before gender ideology reared it's ugly, harmful head, trans identifying males fell into two distinct categories - the often younger gay men who had body dysmorphia, and the fetishistic older straight male autogynaphiles (AGP, otherwise known here as a trip to Malaga airport) who "transitioned" later in life?

This is how you are detailing a thread about school shootings into one about gender ideology, can you not see that? This conversation is literally that in action!

You can't or won't see that young people with trans identities may have mental health issues. We have discussed mental health issues as being a huge contributing factor in school shootings. No matter how much you say it's a derail, it's really not. It is relevant.

I am very against misrepresenting minorities as dangerous groups because of the actions of a few in that minority and that is very much what happens with transgender people here on MN.

No it's not, no one is saying that all trans identified people are dangerous. That is a lie.

What is said often on MN FWR is that women don't want men in their spaces, we won't give over our hard won rights and protections to them and the law is on our side. Predatory men are predatory and need kept away from those they predate on (women and children). Predatory men have jumped at the chance to predate on women and children because of self ID. Trans identifying children have been sold a harmful lie, and the physical harms to their healthy bodies is an absolute scandal (and in my opinion abuse which has been visited on them by older AGP men with a trans identity) this should never have been allowed to happen to children.

It's not dissimilar to the distrust of Muslims and rampant Islamophobia that came about after the terrorist attacks in the naughties. It's wrong and it's dehumanising

Well that's a lovely bit of force teaming isn't it? Feminists who have an issue with a harmful ideology are racist Islamaphobes too now.

Again no one here is making sweeping generalisations about trans people in general. We have massive issues with predatory males, and the harms done to children in the name of "progress" for an ideology which is actually misogynistic and homophobic.

and no amount of saying "well it's rude but it's right" makes it ok.

Again, no one is making sweeping generalisations about trans identifying people and then saying "well it's a bit rude but it's right", I was specifically responding to your comment about supposed misogyny directed at women who believe in gender ideology, who throw other women and children under the bus in service to men being called transmaidens, which again, is a bit rude but not IMO untrue. Also in response to your comment about this supposed misogyny on FWR, I said that sometimes a poster will be asked if they are actually a man because that is how they come across in the thread. I said we can't always know, but there have been times when a poster has let slip that they are in fact male. That isn't misogyny, it might not be super polite, but it's not misogyny to wonder if the person advocating for the removal of women and children's rights or protections is in fact a man.

Again you've entirely misrepresented my position and attempted to put words in my mouth. It's very transparent.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 12:46

MyGreyStork · 30/08/2025 12:20

You’re mistaken. I already said no, I don’t think any of that. But let me repeat myself a second time, I disagree with everything you said. What more is there to say.

Well I did ask you some questions, you obviously don't have to answer them, but I'm interested in why you hold the position that you do.

From my last post:

"Alright so you think trans identified people are somehow totally immune to any mental health issues or other deeper issues that effect other human beings?"

And

"What is it about a having a trans identity that shields them from these issues in your opinion?"

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2025 12:54

I am very against misrepresenting minorities as dangerous groups because of the actions of a few in that minority and that is very much what happens with transgender people here on MN.

No it's not, no one is saying that all trans identified people are dangerous. That is a lie.
What is said often on MN FWR is that women don't want men in their spaces, we won't give over our hard won rights and protections to them and the law is on our side.

Just to further support @CohensDiamondTeeth point here.

Important context is being missed. It's not about painting an entire group as dangerous, but women are being told that 'transwomen' are (for some reason) safe in women's spaces when all agree that 'men' are not.

I think we are entirely within our rights to point out incidents when that is clearly not the case, no?

Bobbingtons · 30/08/2025 13:25

ThatBlackCat · 30/08/2025 05:12

It is very relevant. Copied from another poster elsewhere:

There seems to be a PATTERN…
Uvalde Shooter - Trans
Denver Shooter - Trans
Georgia Shooter - Trans
Nashville Shooter - Trans
Colorado Shooter - Trans
Aberdeen Shooter - Trans
Minnesota Shooter - Trans
lowa Shooter - Gender Fluid
Philadelphia Shooter - Trans

Lies! Although exactly what we would expect from you.
Just had to look at the first quoted case. Uvalde.... Rumours that the shooter was Trans were circulated online within days by right wing commentators and Christian nationalists. These narratives always appear within hours of a shooting because extremist groups like the Heritage Foundation are actively spreading false rumors in order to demonise trans people.
Actual research shows trans people are statistically less likely to be mass shoters.
The other stat that there have been 4 school additions by trans people this year seems to be made up as there appears to be no evidence for this.

Fact Check: Majority of US mass shooters are cis men, not transgender or non-binary people | Reuters https://share.google/4atfRsODKHIJzfFjO

MyGreyStork · 30/08/2025 13:25

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 12:46

Well I did ask you some questions, you obviously don't have to answer them, but I'm interested in why you hold the position that you do.

From my last post:

"Alright so you think trans identified people are somehow totally immune to any mental health issues or other deeper issues that effect other human beings?"

And

"What is it about a having a trans identity that shields them from these issues in your opinion?"

A breakdown of mass shooters;

Straight males: 98%
Straight white males: 57%
Trans: 13%

If you’re focusing on the shooter being trans, then just admit you don’t care about mass shootings. Stop pretending you care about children being murdered, because you clearly do not.

For everyone screaming “it’s not guns it’s mental health”

Trump defunded mental healthcare
Trump defunded access to healthcare
He also shut down The Office of Gun Violence Prevention

So your only argument is “the shooter was trans” WEAK argument.

MyGreyStork · 30/08/2025 13:29

ThatBlackCat · 30/08/2025 05:12

It is very relevant. Copied from another poster elsewhere:

There seems to be a PATTERN…
Uvalde Shooter - Trans
Denver Shooter - Trans
Georgia Shooter - Trans
Nashville Shooter - Trans
Colorado Shooter - Trans
Aberdeen Shooter - Trans
Minnesota Shooter - Trans
lowa Shooter - Gender Fluid
Philadelphia Shooter - Trans

Breakdown of mass shooters:

Straight male: 98%
White straight male: 57%
Trans: 13%

So what I’m getting is that straight males make up 98% of mass shooters…

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 13:48

MyGreyStork · 30/08/2025 13:25

A breakdown of mass shooters;

Straight males: 98%
Straight white males: 57%
Trans: 13%

If you’re focusing on the shooter being trans, then just admit you don’t care about mass shootings. Stop pretending you care about children being murdered, because you clearly do not.

For everyone screaming “it’s not guns it’s mental health”

Trump defunded mental healthcare
Trump defunded access to healthcare
He also shut down The Office of Gun Violence Prevention

So your only argument is “the shooter was trans” WEAK argument.

So you don't want to answer my questions then? Why? You don't think trans identifying people are in any way susceptible to mental health issues or any other deeper issues that might effect other human beings, but I really don't see why that would be the case. What do you think is so different about trans identifying people that makes them immune to mental health issues?

In fact we know that they do often have mental health issues, we've been told by trans identifying people themselves that they suffer from them. So you don't believe them then? Why?

Straight males: 98%
Straight white males: 57%
Trans: 13%

Trans identifying men are still male.

If you’re focusing on the shooter being trans, then just admit you don’t care about mass shootings.

That is a false equivalence. I do care about mass shootings obviously, I don't have the proper words to convey my feelings on them, but obviously they are terrifying and horrific tragedies, particularly where they involve children.

Stop pretending you care about children being murdered, because you clearly do not.

Honestly this is about the level of the argument. I have pointed out some issues which I won't repeat again for fear my fingers will fall off from excessive typing, I have agreed with some of your points, and yet your takeaway is that I'm just pretending to care about children being murdered. Ok then. That's your opinion and it would be pointless to attempt to change your mind, but you are categorically wrong. And I find it really manipulative to boot, if I don't toe your line and get aboard with gender ideology, I must be pretending to care about murdered children... coz that tracks...

For everyone screaming “it’s not guns it’s mental health”

No one is "screaming" "it's not guns it's mental health", we are saying people with mental health issues should be disqualified from gun ownership.

No one is "screaming" at all for goodness sake, but nice bit of hyperbole.

Trump defunded mental healthcare
Trump defunded access to healthcare
He also shut down The Office of Gun Violence Prevention

And that was extremely stupid and IMO dangerous of Trump. I think he's a complete prick, a highly dangerous wannabe dictator and a sexual predator FWIW.

So your only argument is “the shooter was trans” WEAK argument.

No it's not.

That was weirdly Trumpian of you, was that intentional? SAD (Trumpian sarcasm).

Digidestined · 30/08/2025 17:50

CohensDiamondTeeth · 30/08/2025 12:43

Actually I'm not a TRA and I am a firm believer in single sex spaces and third spaces for safety and dignity for all.

Really? Could have fooled me with that "FWR is anti-trans" lie.

The disgusting statements I refer to in FWR are not calling someone a man, of course man is not a slur don't be ridiculous! It's the comments calling them mutilated,

Often when mutilation is talked about it is in regards to the literal mutilation of healthy children's bodies, and the sterilisation of children too.

sick, painting them all as sex offenders etc.

But this is an outright lie! This is never said on FWR. We do however recognise that there are an awful lot of predatory males who gleefully jumped on the opening gender ideology gave them. How else do you account for the sexual assaults and rapes that have been visited on women by sex offender men who are trans identified?

Predatory men, you understand, not all trans people, just the predatory men.

The Swiss study is the study that everyone claims proved that trans women retain a male pattern criminality, the fact you alluded to in your post.

Aha! I am with you now. "For some reason the decades they transitioned in made a difference to their outcomes" could that be accounted for in the fact that before gender ideology reared it's ugly, harmful head, trans identifying males fell into two distinct categories - the often younger gay men who had body dysmorphia, and the fetishistic older straight male autogynaphiles (AGP, otherwise known here as a trip to Malaga airport) who "transitioned" later in life?

This is how you are detailing a thread about school shootings into one about gender ideology, can you not see that? This conversation is literally that in action!

You can't or won't see that young people with trans identities may have mental health issues. We have discussed mental health issues as being a huge contributing factor in school shootings. No matter how much you say it's a derail, it's really not. It is relevant.

I am very against misrepresenting minorities as dangerous groups because of the actions of a few in that minority and that is very much what happens with transgender people here on MN.

No it's not, no one is saying that all trans identified people are dangerous. That is a lie.

What is said often on MN FWR is that women don't want men in their spaces, we won't give over our hard won rights and protections to them and the law is on our side. Predatory men are predatory and need kept away from those they predate on (women and children). Predatory men have jumped at the chance to predate on women and children because of self ID. Trans identifying children have been sold a harmful lie, and the physical harms to their healthy bodies is an absolute scandal (and in my opinion abuse which has been visited on them by older AGP men with a trans identity) this should never have been allowed to happen to children.

It's not dissimilar to the distrust of Muslims and rampant Islamophobia that came about after the terrorist attacks in the naughties. It's wrong and it's dehumanising

Well that's a lovely bit of force teaming isn't it? Feminists who have an issue with a harmful ideology are racist Islamaphobes too now.

Again no one here is making sweeping generalisations about trans people in general. We have massive issues with predatory males, and the harms done to children in the name of "progress" for an ideology which is actually misogynistic and homophobic.

and no amount of saying "well it's rude but it's right" makes it ok.

Again, no one is making sweeping generalisations about trans identifying people and then saying "well it's a bit rude but it's right", I was specifically responding to your comment about supposed misogyny directed at women who believe in gender ideology, who throw other women and children under the bus in service to men being called transmaidens, which again, is a bit rude but not IMO untrue. Also in response to your comment about this supposed misogyny on FWR, I said that sometimes a poster will be asked if they are actually a man because that is how they come across in the thread. I said we can't always know, but there have been times when a poster has let slip that they are in fact male. That isn't misogyny, it might not be super polite, but it's not misogyny to wonder if the person advocating for the removal of women and children's rights or protections is in fact a man.

Again you've entirely misrepresented my position and attempted to put words in my mouth. It's very transparent.

Really? Could have fooled me with that "FWR is anti-trans" lie. Not a lie, my opinion and a lot of other people's opinion. I'm entitled to have an opinion on the matter just as much you, however much you disagree or don't like it.

But this is an outright lie! This is never said on FWR. This is an outright lie. I have seen and reported several posts actually stating this, thankfully they were deleted. There is an abundance of mocking which certainly doesn't denote compassion. Lots of "waving their moobs about" and "literal violence!😂" type posts.

You can't or won't see that young people with trans identities may have mental health issues. Don't be ridiculous, of course they can have mental health issues, anyone can. I don't believe that being trans predisposes them to becoming mass shooter like you seem to be implying it does.

Predatory men are predatory and need kept away from those they predate on (women and children). Of course they should, and you can deny it until you are blue in the face but there is a clear feeling in FWR that simply being transgender makes trans women predatory.

In terms of misogyny, yes having deragotory terms for women you disagree with 'transmaidens' is misogynistic. I also participated in a thread about trans women breast feeding, one particularly unpleasant poster listed not being able to achieve a full supply as one of a long list of reasons why trans women shouldn't be enabled to breast feed. I agreed with almost all of their points but said not being able to achieve a full supply was irrelevant because even if they could achieve a full supply it would still be wrong and unsafe, also to have the inability to produce a full supply bandied about as a reason someone shouldn't be allowed to breastfeed was hurtful to me and other mums who were unable to produce a full supply for their babies and are upset and feeling inadequate about it. Breastfeeding is a very sensitive topic. I was quite firmly told my experience didn't matter and that "all the facts must be included regardless of who they hurt". Well fuck that, disregarding women's feelings on their very female experiences is not feminist. I certainly didn't feel "centred" that day, just like the days when they're all banging on about stubble and being unfeminine looking proof that trans women don't care about actually being seen as women because they put no effort in when women with PCOS are dealing with this daily and feel unfeminine and this narrative is hurtful to them, like me. I was quite swiftly told my feelings on that matter didn't matter either. I would also call that quite misogynistic. And no, I don't consider tolerating trans women and leaving them be in a dignified manner "centring men", I find that assertion ridiculous.

So fuck FWR. It's not pro women unless those women agree. It's not respectful or compassionate. These are my opinions and I'm perfectly entitled to have them whether you like them or believe them to be true.

You have quite clearly misrepresented many things I have said and labelled me a misogynist amongst other things. It's transparent and very on brand. Like when FWR posters@ read something like trans women deserve dignity and safety just like everyone else and reply with 'Why do you hate women!?' total nonsense.

RingoJuice · 30/08/2025 18:07

when women with PCOS are dealing with this daily and feel unfeminine and this narrative is hurtful to them, like me

Are you really comparing PCOS with a trans woman’s grooming ritual? Really?

Tiredofwhataboutery · 30/08/2025 18:10

MyGreyStork · 30/08/2025 13:29

Breakdown of mass shooters:

Straight male: 98%
White straight male: 57%
Trans: 13%

So what I’m getting is that straight males make up 98% of mass shooters…

Given that only 1% of the population is trans, the idea that they carry out 13% of the mass shootings is hugely concerning, no?

Digidestined · 30/08/2025 18:30

RingoJuice · 30/08/2025 18:07

when women with PCOS are dealing with this daily and feel unfeminine and this narrative is hurtful to them, like me

Are you really comparing PCOS with a trans woman’s grooming ritual? Really?

As a woman with severe PCOS who struggles with feeling unwomanly I find the statement that stubble makes someone clearly not a woman and not diligently removing their five o clock shadow means they don't care about being perceived as feminine offensive yes. It's something that has to been said to me by many women in my life growing up and is hurtful.

As a woman who is apparently "centred" by these feminists I do expect them to give a fuck about how women dealing with such conditions feel when they say 'hey, I find this offensive".

I'm also not the only one, many PCOS sufferers have raised that they find these statements offensive and they have also been told to just deal with it. I really don't care if you are disingenuously trying to make out that I think PCOS sufferers and trans womens grooming routines are the same. It's just more of the same attitude and it stinks.

RingoJuice · 30/08/2025 19:50

Digidestined · 30/08/2025 18:30

As a woman with severe PCOS who struggles with feeling unwomanly I find the statement that stubble makes someone clearly not a woman and not diligently removing their five o clock shadow means they don't care about being perceived as feminine offensive yes. It's something that has to been said to me by many women in my life growing up and is hurtful.

As a woman who is apparently "centred" by these feminists I do expect them to give a fuck about how women dealing with such conditions feel when they say 'hey, I find this offensive".

I'm also not the only one, many PCOS sufferers have raised that they find these statements offensive and they have also been told to just deal with it. I really don't care if you are disingenuously trying to make out that I think PCOS sufferers and trans womens grooming routines are the same. It's just more of the same attitude and it stinks.

I have been diagnosed with PCOS as well and I’m fucking offended you’d even compare
what we have to deal with to a man’s GROOMING RITUAL.

I have never been made to feel lesser than by other women, until just now. How dare you compare us this way?

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