School shooting again

[allusernamesaretakennow]

Yet another one.

https://news.sky.com/story/boy-8-and-girl-10-killed-in-us-catholic-school-shooting-named-as-father-brands-attacker-a-coward-13420257

Why no action from all the other ones?

Thanks for that, @Velmy . Good points.
It's just a pity no-one acted on the red flags.

The genie is out of the bottle I'm afraid. Guns are so embedded in American society it will never change. It's like asking people not to use their cars. It won't happen. Gun deaths are a price they are prepared to pay it seems. It doesn't make sense to anyone who hasn't grown up in that culture. There are so many guns in circulation and so many loopholes when buying them to get around what laws there are.

If only a fraction of the time and energy this thread spent arguing whether a killer's transgender identity played a part in their crimes was spent remembering the children who died.

Their names were Fletcher and Harper. They were 8 and 10. It was their third day of the new school year.

Oh don't be so performative. Having a discussion about the shooter doesn't mean people haven't remembered the victims.

It is relevant, it shows that he was mentally ill. Mentally ill people definitely shouldn’t have access to guns.

I'm sorry you find it performative to wish we as a society would talk more about victims than their killers. For every news story focused on the children who were murdered or are critically injured, there are dozens more focused solely on the killer. School shooters' manifestos frequently glorify previous shooters as celebrities. The public feeds into that notoriety by remembering the names and details of killers while their victims remain a faceless monolith.

This thread with the question, "Why no action?" The minute someone posted about the killer's trans identity, the thread devolved into that single focus. Now we're not talking about America's gun fascination, how terrifying it is to be a child in US schools, the lack of any mental health treatment, and the inability of America's leaders to fix this decades-long problem. We're stuck on one aspect of a killer whose manifesto showed they clearly hated just about everyone and wanted to hurt others.

Wouldn't the killer's mental illness be just as evident from their expressed desire to murder children, which was clearly expressed in their manifesto? Or their other racist, antisemitic, anti-religious rantings in videos where they also obsessed about mass murderers?

Little Fletcher looks a lot like my nephew who is the same age.
I want to say it’s heartbreaking but that doesn’t even seem anywhere close to describing it. It’s not only hearts that will have been broken by the cowardly wicked evil
twisted act it’ll be minds bodies and souls.
To add further insult to injury the monster that took the lives of those beautiful little children and injured many others has taken himself out. They and Their families aren’t even going to get justice.
RIP Fletcher and Harper. 🧸 🧸

Yes, but also in his delusion that he was a woman. It shouldn’t be ignored.

When my American relatives visited the UK they were unnerved by the lack of guns. Their rationale being that what happens if a bad guy with a gun comes along and no-one else is armed?

I suppose my frustration is that we're so busy debating the merits of whether trans = mentally ill that we're completely ignoring any other indicators. We're arguing about the color of one flag while ignoring the field of red flags surrounding it.

Well it's not irrelevant though is it?

This male has been reported as being female. That is a falsehood and it is relevant to this discussion.

Crimes committed by trans identifying males are recorded as having been committed by females. That is obscuring the reality of the crimes, skewing statistics, and it is relevant to this discussion.

It has also been reported that this male shooter had written a manifesto in which he talked about his trans identity and why this played a part in his extreme violence.

So yeah the fact that he was trans identifying male is actually relevant to this discussion. It's not and shouldn't be the only part of the discussion, but it is relevant.

culturally embedded

I'm just coming to the end of an American disaster movie (Poseidon) and it struck me that it's the first US drama I've seen for ages that doesn't feature any guns. Plenty of grisly deaths by other means, of course, but its nice to see characters responding to crises without pulling a gun!

@OonaStubbs, your relatives just don't get it, do they? Bad guys in their world come with guns because everybody else has a gun ... and that's the exact reason our cops aren't normally armed.

There is nothing to debate as far as I’m concerned. If a man believe he is a woman, he is mentally ill. He is not living in reality and needs help with his mental health. This man clearly didn’t get that, he got access to a gun and killed and injured children. This may have been due to his mental health or that he was just plain evil.

It’s also important that this crime is recorded as being done by a man, but one that identified as being trans.

I'd say it's a hell of a lot less relevant than mentally ill people of any flavour committing mass shootings and school shootings being a completely routine occurrence.

He didn't do it because he was trans, he did it because he was mentally ill and he lives in a country where buying a gun is easy and shooting kids is normal.

Who fucking cares if it's men or women shooting kids!? People are shooting kids on a regular basis! They have a gun problem not a trans problem!

@TheOtherBennetGirl

Wouldn't the killer's mental illness be just as evident from their expressed desire to murder children, which was clearly expressed in their manifesto? Or their other racist, antisemitic, anti-religious rantings in videos where they also obsessed about mass murderers?

Well yes, after releasing the manifesto prior to the shooting, his expressed desire to murder children, and all the rest does clearly point to mental illness.

However one of the more public facets of that mental illness was apparent in his belief in gender ideology. That should have been a warning sign to everyone that something was wrong.

Now I am not saying that trans identified males are inherently dangerous, but a belief in gender ideology often goes hand in hand with other mental illnesses, autism, sexual abuse, rejection of ones own sexuality (usually because they are gay or lesbian), or other vulnerabilities that would be easily exploited by adult male TRAs with an agenda (for further information see FWR's extensive collection of threads on this subject).

Also if we don't delve into who these school shooters are, and why commit these atrocities against other children, we have no hope of preventing it happening again. So while I agree that the victims should not be forgotten, it's still important for people in a wider sense to discuss school shooters.

We agree - the killer is mentally ill. I think everyone on this thread has agreed with that, albeit for different reasons. Why are we expending so much energy to debate how we got to that conclusion and trying to convince others that our view of trans is correct instead of talking about how we help those who are mentally ill?

It seems like politicians are fixated on the same type of debates we're having on this thread. Everyone's so obsessed with winning the debate that no one is actually addressing how to make help available to those in need.

He didn't do it because he was trans

No one is saying that are they? What they are saying is that his belief in trans ideology and his having a trans identity was clearly part of his mental illness. A total rejection of biology and reality is part of mental illness (the reasons vary as talked about in my last post), and trans identification can be looked at as similar to other mental illnesses like anorexia.

Who fucking cares if it's men or women shooting kids!?

Well I do for one. Things would have had to have shifted in an extreme way in a short period of time if suddenly shootings were being carried out by women on the same scale as they are carried out by males.

You do understand that the majority of violent crime is perpetrated by men right?

So when you have a tragic school shooting such as this (I don't have the words to accurately convey my feelings on this, and obviously all school shootings are tragic!), and the perpetrator is not only male, but is also a trans identifying male is relevant.

As a PP pointed out there have been 5(?) trans identifying shooters (I don't know if this number is correct, but am assuming it is) out of hundreds. Some people could dismiss that as just a very small minority, not worth really investigating.

However I think that given people with trans identities are such a small minority of the population, having 5(?) shooters with a trans identity is actually a surprisingly large chunk out of that population. I think that merits a closer look, don't you?

They have a gun problem not a trans problem!

Yes they have a gun problem.

However, they also have a trans problem because if 5(?) shooters have been trans identified - see my above paragraph about the size of trans identifying people on the population level Vs the incidents of shooters who were trans identifying.

If a trans identity is an indicator of mental illness (and I think it often is, when it's not indicative of something actually quite sinister like AGP fetishists), then perhaps they should be disqualified from gun ownership?

Also, given that some of the most vocal TRAs spout some incredibly violent rhetoric, and are quick to send rape and death threats to everyone they think won't toe their line (mostly to women), I'd say that is another excellent reason to keep guns out of those TRAs hands. Would you not agree with that?

Christ alive! if we don't delve into who these school shooters are, and why commit these atrocities against other children, we have no hope of preventing it happening again !?!? It happens because of their stupid gun laws and gun culture!! We have mentally ill people here in the UK but we're not having mass shootings every week are we!?!

This is the 44th school shooting this year. Only 5 shooters have been trans. Ban transgender people, cure gender dysphoria, whatever you want. You still have 39 unexplained school shootings. Except they aren't unexplained, they are easily explained by Americas gun problem.

And of course FWR is mentioned, you think they are enlightened and are clearly captured by the anti trans obsession. Readers, if you value your faith in humanity avoid that board like the plague.

Who fucking cares if it's men or women shooting kids!? People are shooting kids on a regular basis! They have a gun problem not a trans problem!

Crime statistics, and therefore recording them correctly, are actually really important for various reasons, like spotting trends for example. So while you may not care, it does matter. It is almost always men that are the perpetrators of mass shootings. That information can be used in ways to protect people.

Guns are going nowhere in the US, so the best hope is that the reasons why these people, mainly men, commit these acts, can be addressed in the hope that future shootings can be prevented. That can’t be done without it being recorded properly, including when the person identifies as trans.

This is the 44th school shooting this year. Only 5 shooters have been trans. Ban transgender people, cure gender dysphoria, whatever you want. You still have 39 unexplained school shootings. Except they aren't unexplained, they are easily explained by Americas gun problem.

There are only about 3 million trans identifying people in the US. That means around 337 million people are not trans. If there has been 44 school shootings and 5 of those have been by trans people, that’s a disproportionate number of trans identify people committing those crimes and is actually quite concerning.

It happens because of their stupid gun laws and gun culture!!

Well I'd say that is what facilitates these shooters yes, gun laws, the culture and normalisation is all part of it. But the ease of getting your hands on a gun, the gun culture and normalisation of it is not the only reason we end up with mass shooters is it? Otherwise everyone in the USA would be going on violent sprees left, right and centre.

Clearly there are other factors that feed into school shootings. Mental illness seems to me to be one of the bigger contributing factors.

We have mentally ill people here in the UK but we're not having mass shootings every week are we!?!

But if we had the same prevalence of firearms available, we would. As another PP pointed out, in the UK we restricted our gun laws because of a school shooting in Dunblane. If we hadn't tightened up our laws we would have had many more incidents like that tragedy perpetrated by other mentally ill or disturbed men.

This is the 44th school shooting this year. Only 5 shooters have been trans. Ban transgender people, cure gender dysphoria, whatever you want. You still have 39 unexplained school shootings. Except they aren't unexplained, they are easily explained by Americas gun problem.

I think you missed my point about the number of trans identifying people on a population level (they are considered to be a tiny, tiny minority of people) and how many trans identified shooters there have been this year within that vanishingly small trans identified population. 5 out of 44 is not an insignificant number when viewed from a tiny minority of trans identifying population Vs trans identifying active shooters perspective.

And of course FWR is mentioned, you think they are enlightened and are clearly captured by the anti trans obsession. Readers, if you value your faith in humanity avoid that board like the plague.

Ok that's just an outright lie. FWR is PRO-WOMEN not anti-trans.

It is not anti-trans to want to uphold women's rights, dignity, privacy, spaces, provisions, sports, rape crises centres, health care, awards, places, sponsorships, etc etc etc.

It is in fact misogynistic to tell women that they are anti-trans for attempting to protect the above from the encroaching, infiltrating, colonisation by men (and that's not even counting the straight up fetishism from some of them).

Biological reality is important. Women saying no is not anti-trans. FWR is not anti-trans and in fact have a lot of compassion and understanding of young trans identifying people of both sexes.

As an aside, I'm a stubborn, contrary old mare these days, so if someone tells me not to look at something, particularly if they are using emotionally manipulative phrasing such as "Readers, if you value your faith in humanity avoid that board like the plague.", you can guarantee I'm going to go look! 😂

I don't like being dictated to, or told that my morality or humanity will be in question for simply reading another point of view. The latter is particularly risible.

It's quite authoritarian to tell people to not look, don't read, don't think for yourself.

Frankly it makes me think that the authoritarian speakers are afraid that people might (shock, horror!) use their own brains to think with, and draw their own conclusions with, instead of being told what is "good" or "bad" by other people... they might come to totally different conclusions from the authoritarian speaker and the authoritarian who tries to frighten people away from forming those conclusions with their manipulative phrasing may, or may not have their own agenda... 🤔

So Readers (😂), I say go have a read on FWR and draw your own conclusions.
Don't be afraid, we don't bite! 😂

We are actually quite a nice bunch over there, a bit forthright, but the women (and few men) who post there are incredibly intelligent and compassionate people. We like a good robust discussion and really put a lot of store in reality and actual scientific based evidence (which we are happy to share freely). instead of emotionally manipulative words. We encourage you to make your own minds up, we might disagree with your conclusions, and point out where and why we think you are wrong, but we aren't actually telling you what to think... unlike some people! 😂

Thank you!

I think I mangled it when I tried to say the same, you definitely said it better!

Christ alive! if we don't delve into who these school shooters are, and why commit these atrocities against other children, we have no hope of preventing it happening again !?!? It happens because of their stupid gun laws and gun culture!!

Sure, but it's equally important to understand where the fracture points are. Given that Americans aren't letting go of their beloved death instruments any time soon, I'd say it's vital.

Several studies have shown that mass shooters are domestic abusers. This is a useful insight, isn't it? Someone who beats up his wife or mum is more likely than his nonviolent neighbour to murder a bunch of strangers. With intelligent application, police records and gun controls could be made to work together. Maybe if you commit domestic abuse, you should lose your firearm license.

In the same direction of thought, maybe trans people with a marked interest in death cults should be denied access to guns. Maybe everyone with a death cult interest should, or the subset with a mental illness or those under 25.

It's worth trying to find out this sort of thing, isn't it?

It is very relevant. Copied from another poster elsewhere:

There seems to be a PATTERN…
Uvalde Shooter - Trans
Denver Shooter - Trans
Georgia Shooter - Trans
Nashville Shooter - Trans
Colorado Shooter - Trans
Aberdeen Shooter - Trans
Minnesota Shooter - Trans
lowa Shooter - Gender Fluid
Philadelphia Shooter - Trans