Can anyone help me understand this social situation not sure what to do!

[Alysskea]

Honestly I feel like I’m in high school all over again trying to navigate the world of other toddler mums. Just wondering if anyone can help me work out what the heck is going on and if I’m the problem.

I take my 2yo to a sports session every week on my day off. She absolutely loves it. Afterwards the mums all go to a cafe and we’ve been tagging along because a) they invited us the first week and then said oh we come here every week b) she really enjoys going with the other kids and c) saves me having to try and feed her when we get home.

My issue is, these mums seem to go out of their way to exclude not only me but my child as well. Of course they all know each other better than they know me and I’m not asking for them to go out of their way to be overly friendly or anything, but we usually sit there for an hour and a half and they’ll talk to each other and ignore me completely. Don’t think they’ve ever asked me a question about my life. Fine, whatever. They also exclude my child! Last week one of them took out colouring pages and pens and handed them to each child except mine, and that’s just one example!

I am not sure what to make of it tbh. I have a few working theories

• they never actually wanted me there and asked me along to be polite. But this seems weird as I don’t know why they’d do this or how our presence takes away from their enjoyment of the experience
• they look down on me as I’m slightly less middle class than them. Honestly I’m highly educated and have the same job as one of them but I’m not quite on their level finance wise. You can tell that by looking at me. This makes me sound class obsessed but honestly I’m grasping at straws here.
• they for some reason don’t like me or my child’s personality. But again, I don’t understand why especially as they’ve never spoken to us!
• they’re just really cliquey and treat everyone this way. But I can’t understand how a grown ass woman would do that. It’s just nice to include people who YOU have invited out with you.

Honestly I find it quite upsetting taking my child along and seeing her excluded. She’s so good natured and describes them all as her ‘friends’ when they basically don’t interact with her because their parents have given them all toys and activities to do and not her. But she’d also be really sad if I said we couldn’t go eat with her friends anymore. It would make her even sadder if we didn’t go to her class anymore.

i am sure I’ll get crap for this post and get called paranoid and entitled, but I honestly just feel kind of puzzled and saddened by the whole thing. I am neurodivergent (I have ‘severe’ ADHD that is not medicated currently). But I generally get on well with people and have a broad group of friends including neurotypical middle class mums who seem to think we’re not beneath them lol. This just comes across to me as plain rudeness and seems kind of deranged 🤷🏼‍♀️.

Your child is 2yo. She has no clue about anything. Stop going and forcing this unkindness on her.

Really?
Do you think that, if a group of men had failed to be sufficiently welcoming to a stranger that one of their number had taken it on himself to invite to their weekly catch-up, you'd have twenty pages of strangers on the internet calling them everything under the sun?
There isn't even a male equivalent to "bitches" because men are allowed to not be sweet and obliging with everyone who crosses their path.

I don't think men would actively exclude another bloke who rocked up to a social catch up like this unless there were extreme circumstances or the new guy was an absolute arsehole...

I don't think that a NT man would be likely to spend two or three months trailing unhappily along to a cafe under the impression he's been issued a general invitation by a group of people who never talk to him.

Then again, I don't think most women would either.

Is it within the building of the activity or do you have to leave it to get to the cafe ?
I ask because if it's within you could still go and sit at another table and your child could still play with the other children .
Another way is just brazen it out , maybe try to start up conversation with the quietest member of the group as they could be struggling also .

I know lots of men who don't talk to people if they don't feel like it, and noone assumes that all men will attend to others' needs by smoothing the social path for them so noone criticises them for it.
My DH wouldn't have a clue who was feeling excluded and who was feeling welcome at a social gathering! It's just not something we expect of men.

I don’t think the OP would take any of this to heart if she was a man as men tend not to care about exclusion, not making friends with other dads etc. I’m not having a go at the OP btw as I completely understand why she feels the way she does. Men just operate under different norms.

You will never find a thread from a man who thinks other dads are being unkind and exclusionary on the school run because they are just not wired to give a shit about whether or a bunch of men they do not know include them. Men do not tend to meet up with other dads at cafes. If they take their DC to a baby activity, they just leave afterwards. The dads would not really think about socialising together. Women are completely different in that respect.

Op, I have been on the other side of your situation when I was in an ‘established’ group of mums and a new one joined us at the cafe. Looking back, I realise we didn’t set out to exclude her but would eg spend time talking about some past event or people the new mum didn’t know. But we certainly didn’t ignore her child - that is vile! She stopped coming to the cafe but I met her again when our DC ended up starting Reception at the same school. She was cordial towards me but never friendly which is fine and understandable.

I say this as someone who makes friends easily and who has been accused of excluding people in the past - there are rude, awful people in the world (in which case, why bother trying to be friends with them??) but most people are decent and are just bumbling through life responding to things without much agenda. You have to actively try not to read too much into how people behave - generally if you are friendly and chatty people will just accept you. Established groups have dynamics that can make them weird and confusing to outsiders - it's hard for anyone to join a group and sometimes it doesn't work. There's no reason to take it personally or believe people are judging you - most people with children don't have the brain space to give to judging random people.

I ran a toddler group and observing the dynamics there was very interesting. There was one mum who came to me having been there a few months, complaining bitterly about cliques and exclusion. That same mum had spent every single session sat away from everyone, looking at her feet. I was genuinely baffled as to what she expected to happen - maybe for someone to come over, force eye contact and invite her to talk? I said as nicely as possible that if she went and started a conversation with someone they would probably respond. She did make more of an effort after that, which I think paid off a little.

Interactions are two way - you have your perception of how they're behaving but they also have their perceptions of you. If you appear awkward or uncomfortable then they may avoid talking to you because they don't know what to say. They may be just as shy and unsure as you are. It can appear, especially in a group, that everyone is sorted and secure, but that's not always the case. It is enjoyable to talk to someone who is relaxed and open - if you strive to be that way, most people will warm to you.

I can't get my head around excluding a child from a colouring activity, how petty and unkind. Don't waste anymore of your energy on this group of women

This. Men aren't socialised to consider other people's feelings or needs to be more important than their own.

Sadly, you will find mums like this at many clubs / activities.

Awful.

You just need to disengage, don’t go again, but remain smiley, give a cheery wave etc. don’t be dragged down to their level.

You will find a more welcoming group.

Class does often play a part, but it’s not as straightforward as you might think.

You think they are looking down on you as not being as wealthy as them. That may well be true. But they are showing a distinct lack of class or basic manners by behaving in this way and I hope they realise this at some point.

By a similar token, some groups of more working class mums can also be difficult to infiltrate, but this can come from the other end of the spectrum and they can feel insecure about socialising with people who they see as “posh.”

By no means always, this is such an observation.

Unfortunately you often do have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a mum group you are comfortable with. Just keep being approachable, friendly and easy going, and don’t let that unfriendly group bother you.

Sadly, you will find mums like this at many clubs / activities.

Awful.

You just need to disengage, don’t go again, but remain smiley, give a cheery wave etc. don’t be dragged down to their level.

You will find a more welcoming group.

Class does often play a part, but it’s not as straightforward as you might think.

You think they are looking down on you as not being as wealthy as them. That may well be true. But they are showing a distinct lack of class or basic manners by behaving in this way and I hope they realise this at some point.

By a similar token, some groups of more working class mums can also be difficult to infiltrate, but this can come from the other end of the spectrum and they can feel insecure about socialising with people who they see as “posh.”

By no means always, this is such an observation.

Unfortunately you often do have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a mum group you are comfortable with. Just keep being approachable, friendly and easy going, and don’t let that unfriendly group bother you.

The mistake an introvert makes sometimes especially one with an inferiority complex, is that everyone else has great social skills, is on their A game, is a super-friendly extrovert and that the problem lies with them.

The other mums may be introverts, are almost certainly knackered and not on their best form, and may find it difficult to go out but this little group and the close friendship group has been a lifeline for them. They may not be feeling confident or friendly enough due to shyness, shame, guilt, defensiveness etc to be magnanimous to others. Or are likely giving it no thought at all and don't see it the same way as the OP. They may be extremely worried about letting someone else in to a group where they have been able to talk about difficult or personal things for the first time. Or maybe they are just a bunch of snobs? Snobbery does come from a place of insecurity after all.

Who knows? Anyway it's better not to take it personally and try to see the best in others generally.

It’s a rubbish social situation that I unfortunately recognise.

I suspect these people have either an existing social connection or very new tenuous connection with each other where their ‘friendship’ is not secure enough to admit others. … or risk admitting others.

The behaviour is rude, it’s unpleasant to experience and can be common in such activities. but it’s unlikely to be about you.

Look out for others who might fancy a cup of tea after and make your own, one on one, invitations.

Small groups are hard even for those within who are being rude as they are probably worried that if they let you get a word in they will find themselves the one on the outside.

Toddler groups can be really quite strange. I smugly thought I'd cracked it with my first-born, because even though I hadn't grown up in the town where we lived, I'd made a couple of friends at ante-natal classes, so there was someone there to chat to from the off. We moved house to somewhere with a lot of incomers, and everyone had a vested interest in being inclusive.
We moved again, to a place with a more settled population, and boom. No bugger wanted to know. I tried, probably too hard. Spent so long feeling awkward and judged, and it was horrible. I'd never been self-conscious about casual chat before, and the more isolated I felt, the more awkward I probably appeared.
I don't know what the answer is with these people. Don't go to the cafe again unless you pal up properly with someone else. It's making you feel like shit, and that's bad for both of you. Just remember: sometimes it's them, not you.

I'd leave this mum group to it, and go find some new mum friends. Your 2yo won't be bothered.

I have 4 (now adult) children and tried all kinds of playgroups and various other activities, before I found one that stuck, the local toddler group at the local primary school. I starting getting to know people, by making myself useful by making cups of tea, coffee, orange squash, putting out biscuits, collecting the money (50p per session), setting up activities and staying behind to tidy up, then I'd invite the mums left to come round for a brew. We ended up going to each other's houses on alternate weeks, and we planned and did summer holiday activities too. We also did grown up activities like a weekend to London/Edinburgh/Dublin t etc etc. I'm now 65 and happy to say most of these women are still a big part of my life, although none of our children really stay in touch. They grew apart at primary and then high school.

So, given that this behaviour is so rude, why on earth is the OP tagging along, obviously unwanted, with people she appears not to like and whose exclusion of her and her child she resents, every week for two or three months? Is she under the impression that they're suddenly going to decide she's great, despite avoiding talking to her and showing no desire for her presence, because she's passed their 'test' or something?

I swear, if you removed the Mn posts which complain about people they don't like and don't respecy not being welcoming or wanting to spend time with them, whether those are PIL or a schoolgate 'clique', both AIBU and Relationships would be a lot quieter.

Good post from @AnPiscin.

This is undeniably crap behaviour OP and I'm sorry you've had the bad luck to encounter such an unfriendly bunch. Though I do rather love that you keep turning up, apparently oblivious to their little pass-agg schemes😄

My theory is that there's usually a Queen Bee who sets the tone in these groups, and the others just go along with it.

Also I agree with @Comedycook. Over many years' observation, spanning three husbands and their friends, my conclusion is that (straight) men's friendships aren't nearly as fraught as women's. The difference I think is in what brings them together.

Men can chat interminably about sport, cars, politics or whatever it is that floats their boat. They just find like-minded blokes, even perfect strangers, and off they go, with the odd laugh thrown in. It's inclusive and friendly but pretty boring (to me!). If they disagree it's not the end of the world - they'll happily argue their point ad infinitum.

I've found that women tend to talk less about external subjects and hobbies, and more about the people they know and interact with. It's more intense, emotional and very bonding, but disagreements can easily slide into hurt, offence and exclusion.

I was also going to say sometimes I think I can be friends with someone and then after spending time with them it's clear we don't gel so I wonder if that's what happened. It's mean of them to be that way but you didn't get the message. I can see it from both sides as I wouldn't be openly mean to someone and I'd hate that happening to me but on the other hand I can see how it changes the dynamics if one person doesn't fit in and it changes the dynamics. I've been on both sides.

This is undeniably crap behaviour OP and I'm sorry you've had the bad luck to encounter such an unfriendly bunch. Though I do rather love that you keep turning up, apparently oblivious to their little pass-agg schemes😄

And you don't think this is way weirder behaviour than theirs, given that the OP has apparently been trailing after them weekly for several months, as they ignore her?

Their behaviour suggests they saw the invitation as a one-off and are thoroughly tired of the OP pursuing them to a cafe for two or three months.

Yeah no @RuthandPen you are really rude.

No, because a) they invited her in the first place, on an ongoing basis and b) there's no obvious reason why they'd want to exclude her and DD.

Sounds like a simple case of unpleasant gang mentality to me, but I admire OP's refusal to believe that anyone could be so childish.

It's not clear that they invited her on an ongoing basis at all -- the OP doesn't mention it in her first post, then claimed they had in response to an earlier post by me, but actually, both given the ambiguous way she reports it was phrased, and the OP's self-confessed inability to read social cues, and the fact that the entire group have spent two or three months ignoring her, it seems more likely to be that there was no ongoing invitation, and the OP misunderstood and has just kept showing up, despite everything saying 'No one wants you here.'

Which is sad for her, obviously.

Can you imagine a group of NT women going to a cafe every week for 2-3 months and sitting at the same table as the OP and not saying a word to her, I can’t. It would be incredibly uncomfortable. I think they’d either begrudgingly include her or they’d stop going.

The OP hasn’t answered my earlier question but I suspect she’s not actually sitting with them, so they haven’t realised that she thinks she is with their group.

Yes, I think that's perfectly possible.