Overheard chat about why people don’t progress at work

[OchreCrab]

I overheard a conversation at a cafe about why people don’t progress at work.

Im 40 and was self employed until 32 selling a product with no staff and just myself. I had to move countries to be closer to mum who’s had health issues. I also had a baby so was away from the workforce for a year.

I have a PAYE job and started on £21k and after job hopping a few times I’m on £34k. I hope to progress and I've been placed with a mentor. I have a lot of weakness in my communication.

However I was wondering if a reason why I’ve not progressed is because of ability, how can you tell? I don’t communicate well but I do hope to work on my low self esteem. It’s also hard to get training/support whilst at work due to busy managers. I’ve moved companies and want to stay in this job for a little while longer (due to baby and hopefully learning about the job/industry). Also could get a funded cert via my employer.

i hope when I’m 50 I’m head of something.

Aibu I’m thinking I can’t progress?

Some jobs have no route for progression. There are 'dead end jobs'.

I think I get what you are trying to say, although you are not entirely clear in your writing.
I don’t mean to be condescending but do you read regularly? Or do you write any articles for work, or equivalent? Perhaps if you feel more confident with these skills then your verbal (communication) skills may improve if that’s what you want. All are interlinked and as important as each other.

Thank you so much.

yes I feel like I have ticked a lot of those boxes.

i don’t want to out myself too much but i moved to a higher paid job (to me that’s progression) after job hopping to get more experience.

I didn’t really have much support (I really mean interaction) and due to restructures and staff leaving I have got new line management and I’ve become more involved. I’m just trying to find a happy medium of knowing what to ask for and how to get involved. New manager is great.

I've been accepted as a mentee which I’m hoping will be useful. I do fear that I’m unclear about what I want to do long term, which could make it hard. But surely that’s what a mentor will help guide the mentee.

Yes but wouldn’t you job hop?

Not everyone is capable of that.

Do you find management structure hard to deal with? As self-employed you'd bypassed that. Or is it being part of a group?

I think a lot of people who struggle going from the autonomy of self-employment to a structured employment.

But also don't rule out vitamin deficiencies causing brain fog etc. It's worth getting blood test to rule anything like that out too.

I think there's a mix of reasons. I have colleagues who won't progress because they do what's asked and no more. Things I think are part of doing a job well - maybe updating a doc thst our team manages when you see an error - they won't update it unless told. They are quite capable, just so passive. I find it a little baffling.

In contrast, another guy is very enthusiastic, he helps people, he gets involved with as many projects as he can. He's very proactive. He needs to learn how do say no to some things, and how to manage stress at times, but he can learn that. He's been nominated for our leadership pipeline.

But I have also seen prejudice get in the way - I'm in a very male dominated area, and I've seen people held back through sexism... I've seen women held back. They just have to jump through extra hoops. I'm 9 months into my current role, and nearly cried at my first mid-year review, because they actively seem to recognise good work and will support those who show promise, and it's so different when you have managers who believe in you and support you, rather than trying to squash you into a restrictive box they think you should stay in.

I have maybe misunderstood your OP 🙈

I haven't progressed due to a combination of being directionless, less than average GCSE results, 4 kids, all autistic. I have the ultimate low level job which is killing me - stacking shelves in nightshift. I've been trying to find something else for ages but nothing. I'd love to job hop but I'm bottom of the recruitment pile 😫

Oh god yes that’s so tough and there are few roles in supermarkets.

Having four dependent children must be hard.

I guess maybe going to a job delivering or another supermarket is an option? I don’t know.

have you thought about call centre work but it’s also not ideal but slightly different

Yes it felt like my managers before just didn’t bother with me.

I do hope to work on my low self esteem

I think this is your biggest problem op. You need to start believing in yourself because if you don't, why should anyone else?

Identify where you think you have weaknesses and ask for targeted training to address those areas. Your mentor should be able to help you with this.

I don't think it's possible to mask or "reinvent yourself" without a lot of stress.

The advice I wish I'd been given when leaving school is this = look for a job that plays to your skills and where you can do a good job while working at 80% capacity rather than needing 100% the whole time.

If coming across confidently and articulating your thoughts clearly on the spot are difficult for you, don't do a job where those skills are the main thing that you are judged on.

thank you all for the comments

Communication can always be worked on and you’d be shocked at the people who are constantly working hard at it. I’m at a large global firm, our ceo has been here 5 years. Just recently at an all company do I noticed how much more naturally he speaks to a crowd than a couple of years ago.

you will need 10-20 minutes a day, perhaps longer. Have a question per day of the week.
each evening, look at the question. Write a 3 line response. Ask chat gpt how they would phrase the response to reply to your boss as part of a casual but work focussed conversation where you want to sound like an aware, promotable employee. And present it to yourself in the mirror several times, speaking naturally. Record it from the second week.

Monday: what are the team’s current strategic / key priorities?
tuesday: what are your current focus tasks?
Wednesday: what do you think your managers priorities are?
Thursday : what are two things you’re going to need some feedback or input on and why?
Friday: Is there anything your manager should know (something that might be late in a few weeks, leave rostering will leave the team short, we should organise a team lunch, Jane is pretty unhappy with her new project)

The eldest are ok to be left and one off to university soon. But the other 2 aren't in school, which is why I work nights. I have done call centres previously, but DH is self-employed and his home time varies a lot and my in-laws used to help back then, but wouldn't be able to now. No point going to another supermarket as it's the work (overnights is the heavy deliveries) rather than the actual company (which has pretty generous benefits).

It's a mess of my own making, as if I'd been focused on a career before kids, I might be in a better position now. But I was just always a bit aimless, bobbed along in office admin jobs and never found anything I was good at or was interested in.

@OchreCrab OP, I am in a similar situation in that I can't progress. However, my situation is different in that I am well qualified (this should at least show to you that academics can only do so much).

I would say your main weakness is your communication, because it's also my weakness. You will have noticed at our age that there are people who are thick as shit, were completely average at school and university, but they have progressed very well and are on high salaries because they are good at communication, performing well in interviews (no one can progress without doing well in an interview!), and keeping customers happy.

So personally, I would think that if you want to progress, maybe focus on your communication and your presence, rather than hard skills and academics.

It's partially luck tbh.
If you end up working with a manager who likes you, and needs help, and you're personable moving up is relatively easy.

That's what I did.

Struggled to get a job doing what I wanted to do (same as my ex, we previously had a company doing the same thing)
I got a role, he had been doing these roles for years, within weeks I was moved up, and then moved him over to my team, and became his boss.
I was asked to leave the company and work abroad for my manager when he left. He told me I would go much, much further than even he, and he would do everything he could to help me get to where I wanted to be.
Without his support I'd have struggled I think.

Speaking is learnable. When we came back from covid I couldnt public speak, I froze, got mixed up and freaked out even though it was my favourite lart of my work before hand. I got a coach and it really helped.
I think if you already know your skills gaps then you are on a good path to progress.
For management then delegation, strategy and leadershio skills should also be on your bucket list of things to learn. Although some people are natural managers of people and some are natural dooers.
If you are a natural dooer, then you can progress by becoming highly specialised in a subject area or particular technology, process or thing without the management of people.
If you are more of a people person then management might be the way to go, although I have seen some awful managers, the best ones however are good organisers and good with people.
I think dig into what you think is more your thing. No point holding out for a gead of role if you dont like the idea of management and dealing with people and staff. But there are other ways to progress for sure

I would work out what it is you enjoy most and what you would like to do. If communication isn't your strong point and you get a bit tongue tied you might look for a role that does not require verbally line managing people - there are different ways to progress and different roles that suit different personalities. Look at the various ways to progress and see which one suits your personality best - it may not be the highest paid but you don't want to dread going to work each day and feel drained at the end of it!

I have been second in charge in an organisation and the defacto head of a different organisation when they had no one appointed for a while but the honest truth of it is I like being number 2 or number 3, not number 1. I find the constant networking, talking and so on really tiring, the fake niceties are awful too and people who introduce you at social events by your job title. I am a background person - I like to plan, create, write etc... I don't mind line managing people as I like to help people but I hate being the face of an organisation. I do like a good chat but if I have to chat to everyone I just feel drained at the end of the day! I have to work out where I fit in in this regard without taking too big a pay cut!

Don't just ask, be proactive, identify issues, fixes and present a plan to your manager. Don't be passive in raising your profile.

You also need to be sure of your strengths and weaknesses and don’t choose a profession that contradicts that. I’m not a very good communicator especially verbal and in front of large groups of people so my chosen career in finance doesn’t require a lot of people engagement. You will fail if you set yourself up to fail.

I think there's loads of good advice on this thread. Not expecting to have your hand held is such an important one, I feel. As is the ability to accept critical feedback and act accordingly.

I've moved in the opposite way to you; I was a senior manager, and now I'm self-employed.

I think you have to be a clear and confident communicator to be an effective leader, especially at the level you aspire to eventually be. I also think you need to be able to make difficult decisions at times without being wracked with self-doubt. That's tough if you're someone who struggles with their self-esteem. Senior management can be a lonely place, especially if the business is going through a tough time.

We don't know you or your strengths. But what occurs to me is that you seem very focussed on "progression", almost no matter what. Different careers offer different routes for progression. Heading up a department - which is what you've referenced - may not be the best route for you. You can polish up your skills all you want, but sometimes a person just isn't a good fit for a certain type of role, no matter how hard they try.

I hated being a senior manager but I was very good in a technical role. Different skills, but similar levels of seniority (in the field I was in).

I think it's great you've got a mentor and are keen to develop. But I would ask yourself honestly what you're aiming for and why, and whether it's something that will actually make you happy beyond the £££ and the prestige. Battling to be something you're not and having to draw on skills that don't come easily can take its toll day after day.

In your shoes I'd be looking for a role that drew on my natural strengths. Sure, develop your weaker areas too, but focus on finding a role where you can naturally excel.

I'm I'm intrigued by your thread title - what did you overhear?

This.

You can always improve, but also - think about playing to your strengths, target roles that involve less verbal communication and don't put you on the spot as much.

That said - don't neglect working on it. Communication becomes so so important as you become more senior, if you know its a weakness, work on it