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Still think Two Tier justice does not exist?

1000 replies

rubicustellitall · 15/08/2025 15:00

Ricky Jones found not guilty..my flabber has never been so ghasted!
Anyone have any views..

OP posts:
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BigFatLiar · 18/08/2025 20:39

It's one of the problems of jury trial, juries can ignore the evidence and vote how they feel. So if he had a majority of people on the jury who shared his views he may have been let off irrespective of the evidence.

TinyIsMyNewt · 18/08/2025 20:40

AzurePanda · 18/08/2025 19:05

@TinyIsMyNewt and Lucy Connolly only pleaded guilty after her bail was denied, apparently in panic. I still don’t understand why bail was refused.

We can safely assume that Jones was also denied bail in the first instance.

For him to have been initially remanded after his first hearing - which he was - there are two possibilies. Either he asked for bail and it was denied - or - he was invited to apply for bail and...decided not to bother.

The latter seems highly unlikely. Yet he went on to plead Not Guilty.

I'd also flag that Connolly's private messages about how she intended to avoid culpability (first, that she would lie to say she had been hacked then, if that failed, she would "play the mental health card") are not consistent with someone who was panicking. They strongly suggest someone who was aware of their guilt and was strategizing how she might (dishonestly) get away with it.

TinyIsMyNewt · 18/08/2025 20:43

BigFatLiar · 18/08/2025 20:39

It's one of the problems of jury trial, juries can ignore the evidence and vote how they feel. So if he had a majority of people on the jury who shared his views he may have been let off irrespective of the evidence.

That is true, however, jury deliberations for Jones were extremely quick (30 mins), which indicates that everyone on the jury very quickly reached a unanimous "not guilty" decision.

Alexandra2001 · 18/08/2025 20:50

BigFatLiar · 18/08/2025 20:39

It's one of the problems of jury trial, juries can ignore the evidence and vote how they feel. So if he had a majority of people on the jury who shared his views he may have been let off irrespective of the evidence.

Thats why here are 12, unlikely all would ignore evidence.

A jury member can report concerns to the judge, if they feel others are not acting properly.

SerendipityJane · 18/08/2025 20:52

BigFatLiar · 18/08/2025 20:39

It's one of the problems of jury trial, juries can ignore the evidence and vote how they feel. So if he had a majority of people on the jury who shared his views he may have been let off irrespective of the evidence.

He was acquitted by a unanimous verdict. If more than 2 jurors had disagreed then the case would have probably gone to a retrial.

SerendipityJane · 18/08/2025 20:54

Alexandra2001 · 18/08/2025 20:50

Thats why here are 12, unlikely all would ignore evidence.

A jury member can report concerns to the judge, if they feel others are not acting properly.

Wasn't a jury dismissed for using a ouija board ?

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 20:59

TinyIsMyNewt · 18/08/2025 20:25

The sentencing guidelines aren't relevant to Ricky he was found not guilty.

To get into the details a bit more...

Lucy Connolly

  1. The Offence

was charged with an offense under Section 19(1) of the Public Order Act 1986.

The offense is "distributing written material with the intention of stirring up racial hatred".

To establish guilt (were it contested), the prosecution would have need to prove the following 3 elements

  1. Publication or distribution of written material.
  1. The material must be threatening, abusive, or insulting.
  1. Either:
(a) The defendant must have intended to stir up racial hatred, or (b) Racial hatred was likely to be stirred up, considering all circumstances.

Elements 1 and 2 are, obviously, made out.

For element 3, even if Connolly could have persuaded a court that 3(a) was not satisfied - by denying it was her intention - the issue is that the CPS would likely have a far easier time proving 3(b) instead, particularly considering "all the circumstances" involved the riots.

  1. Defences

There were not a great deal of defences available to Connolly, in terms of whether or not she was guilty.

She may have been able to defend 3(a), by arguing it was not her intent (and perhaps received a lesser sentence if she showed it was unintentional) or used Mental Health or Diminished Capacity as a partial defence.

Undermining even these defences were her private messages, where she indicated her intention to deny responsibility for the tweet or "play the mental health card" if arrested.

2. Sentencing

When it comes to sentencing itself, there are two factors related to the seriousness of the offence that the court had to weigh, to determine the starting point.

The first is Culpability, the second is Harm.

For Culpability, it can be A (mostly serious), B (moderate) or C (least serious, not relevant here).

At the time of initial sentencing, the CPS argued for A, and Connolly agreed. She has now said she acted on bad advice and B would have been more reasonable. She appealed on this basis, at the Court of Appeal, and lost.

The criteria for A and B are below. Please note that not every element needs to be made out - they are guidance of the types of factors that the court must weigh

A - Most Culpable

  1. Intent to incite serious violence.
  2. Use of position of influence or trust.
  3. Premeditated or persistent behavior.
  4. Use of sophisticated methods.
  5. Exploitation of public fear or unrest.
  6. No remorse, or attempts to deflect responsibility.

B - Moderate

  1. Intent to stir up hatred, but not violence.
  2. Single incident, not part of a pattern.
  3. Some planning, but not sophisticated.
  4. Limited reach.
  5. May show some remorse or lack of awareness of impact.

I do think that A is the appropriate category, because:

  • the Tweet referenced serious violence, not just general hatred;
  • Connolly had a history of making racist tweets, so it was not "out of the blue";
  • The timing heavily indicates that it was intended to exploit public unrest;
  • The tweet was widely shared (and she did have a fairly significant following); and
  • Her WhatsApp messages indicated strategic thinking on her part - and that she was aware of the impact of her words, was not remorseful, and was already planning (after the event) how she might evade culpability.

The 3 judges of the Court of Appeal felt similarly.

Harm is also assessed on a 3-tier scale, 1 being the most serious.

I won't go into detail, here, because even on Appeal, Connolly accepted her tweet fell into the highest category, but the following are relevant to Category 1:

  • Encourages or incites violence.
  • Is disseminated widely or virally, especially via social media.
  • Is published in a volatile or sensitive context (e.g., during civil unrest).
  • Has a real-world impact, such as contributing to riots.
  • Targets vulnerable or marginalized groups in a way that increases risk.

Had her appeal been successful, and established that 1B was appropriate, not 1A, the starting point for sentencing would have been 2 years (range 1-4).

As it is, she was in category 1A (3 years starting point, 2-6 typical range) and her sentence was at the lowest end.

Rick Jones

  1. The Offence

Was charged under Section 44–46 of the Serious Crime Act.

The offence is Encouraging Violent Disorder.

The elements, which all need to be proven, are:

  1. The defendant must have done something capable of encouraging others to commit violent disorder;
  1. The defendant must have:
(a) Intended to encourage the commission of violent disorder, or (b) Been reckless as to whether their conduct would encourage it;
  1. The act must be objectively capable of encouraging violent disorder; and
  1. The encouragement must relate to conduct that would amount to violent disorder, which itself involves three or more persons using or threatening unlawful violence.

1, 3 and 4 are plainly made out (I'd say).

The second element is the one where Jones successfully defended. Essentially, he argued that:

  • he was referring to "slitting the throats" of those National Front members who had hidden switchblades in public places (this is relevant because nobody knows who the NF members who did that actually were, so there's no obvious target for violence);

  • the crowd did not understand it to be a genuine call to seek out those people and slit their throats; and

  • that his comment was a one-off, spoken in the heated of the moment.

That last part is relevant in assessing "recklessness" under 2(b), because, while a person is "reckless" if they are aware of a risk that their conduct could cause a particular result and, if spoken impulsively, unplanned and in a reactive/emotional context, then "awareness of the risk" is much harder to prove.

2. Sentencing is not relevant really, since Jones was not found guilty.

I really don't think there can be many complaints about how the law was applied to Connolly in sentencing - it was pretty much open and shut. It probably does not help her, either, that unlike with Jones, there were actual attempts - after her tweets - or burning down hotels housing migrants.

Jones, I think, was on the precipice, but I do think it was the right decision. In the absence or corroborating evidence, that demonstrated that he knew and had in his mind at the moment he spoke, seemingly-off-the-cuff, that his words might prompt those at the protest to actually slit people's throats (particularly those NF members who had been hiding switchblades, and whose identities and locations were unknown), I don't think you can prove even the "reckless" intent beyond all reasonable doubt.

However - to throw you a bit of a bone here - I do think there is a reasonable argument that 3(b) of the offence Connolly was charged with should be replaced by something more similar to 2(b) of Jones's - where (at minimum), reckless intent was needed. Had the law given Connolly the ability to deny intent, to avoid being found guilty, she may have felt more able to plead Not Guilty.

We cannot say for sure how a trial of Connolly would have panned out were there a hypothetical "recklessness" requirement - she might have found a sympathetic jury. I would say, though, that even if the law was changed, the evidence against Connolly (on intent) was significantly stronger than the evidence against Jones. My guess is that she would have been found Guilty and then ended up with a longer sentence than the one she got.

You're just quoting archaic waffle preached by old fools in grey wigs like the house of Lords which doesn't translate to actual reality of offence committed. Connolly tweeted " set fire to migrant hotels for all I care". It was a tasteless comment but still a throwaway comment when on X. Stop using the precious law as a barometer of fairness - laws are transient which shift from one generation to the next and the same law you worship now will be viewed in the same contempt as laws that stopped women voting 100 years ago are today. The law of the land may be something we have to live by, but it doesn't make it right.

Murderers and child rapists often only serve a few years in prison before getting let out - is that justice? Use common sense and think out of the box, it was a fcking tweet on a social media site. Jones literally said "Slit their throats" whilst Connolly said she doesn't care on twitter. Don't bother throwing anyone a "Bone", you're arguing what Jones did was less serious than Connolly and literally have no sense of proportion on common sense.

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:04

BTW if you are going to arrest people for "racist tweets" millions would be arrested ( of all colours) Start with Dr Shola and Narinder Kaur. Have you any egs of these "racist tweets"

MiloMinderbinder925 · 18/08/2025 21:05

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 20:59

You're just quoting archaic waffle preached by old fools in grey wigs like the house of Lords which doesn't translate to actual reality of offence committed. Connolly tweeted " set fire to migrant hotels for all I care". It was a tasteless comment but still a throwaway comment when on X. Stop using the precious law as a barometer of fairness - laws are transient which shift from one generation to the next and the same law you worship now will be viewed in the same contempt as laws that stopped women voting 100 years ago are today. The law of the land may be something we have to live by, but it doesn't make it right.

Murderers and child rapists often only serve a few years in prison before getting let out - is that justice? Use common sense and think out of the box, it was a fcking tweet on a social media site. Jones literally said "Slit their throats" whilst Connolly said she doesn't care on twitter. Don't bother throwing anyone a "Bone", you're arguing what Jones did was less serious than Connolly and literally have no sense of proportion on common sense.

Why aren't you viewing them equally?

They both just said "words". One said words about setting light to occupied buildings and one said words about slitting throats. Surely we should use 'common sense' and treat them both the same.

TinyIsMyNewt · 18/08/2025 21:05

I can totally understand why a layperson might look at the language of Connolly's tweet vs the language of Jones's statement and - ignoring (or excusing) the fact that Connolly pled guilty, think that something looks amiss.

That is actually represents "Two Tier Justice" is a nonsense, though.

Connolly was obviously guilty of the offence she was charged with.
Jones's guilt was far less obvious (the case against him was strong enough to warrant a trial, but its telling how quickly the Jury found him not guilty).

The primary difference between the two offences is that Jones's one allowed "that was not my intention" to serve as a defence, where Connolly's did not.

The law Connolly was convicted under had been law for some 40 years now (since Thatcher's government introduced it) and I cannot say that I've heard anyone take issue with it previously.

In any event, even if the law had allowed Connolly to adopt a "that was not my intention" defence, I do think there is a very strong case that her posting history and personal messages would have been sufficiently strong evidence that she probably would have pleaded Guilty, or been found Guilty, anyway.

And how on Earth anyone could think that Starmer is responsible for the disparity in the laws, and the results of the two cases, is beyond me.

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:09

MiloMinderbinder925 · 18/08/2025 21:05

Why aren't you viewing them equally?

They both just said "words". One said words about setting light to occupied buildings and one said words about slitting throats. Surely we should use 'common sense' and treat them both the same.

Because 1 was on twitter of apathy saying she doesn't care and one was in real life to a large crowd using a slitting throat gesture literally calling for murder. They aren't remotely the same to any sane person.

People need to stop treating "cyber crime" as the same as real life. If you received threats in real life it isn't the same as on a daft social media site - both are wrong but to suggest a tweet is like someone at your front door or in Jones' case shouting to a crowd in person is absurd. One of the reason crime has shot through the roof is police are on twitter and fb more than actually policing the streets for low hanging fruit with a cup of coffee in hand,

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:12

TinyIsMyNewt · 18/08/2025 21:05

I can totally understand why a layperson might look at the language of Connolly's tweet vs the language of Jones's statement and - ignoring (or excusing) the fact that Connolly pled guilty, think that something looks amiss.

That is actually represents "Two Tier Justice" is a nonsense, though.

Connolly was obviously guilty of the offence she was charged with.
Jones's guilt was far less obvious (the case against him was strong enough to warrant a trial, but its telling how quickly the Jury found him not guilty).

The primary difference between the two offences is that Jones's one allowed "that was not my intention" to serve as a defence, where Connolly's did not.

The law Connolly was convicted under had been law for some 40 years now (since Thatcher's government introduced it) and I cannot say that I've heard anyone take issue with it previously.

In any event, even if the law had allowed Connolly to adopt a "that was not my intention" defence, I do think there is a very strong case that her posting history and personal messages would have been sufficiently strong evidence that she probably would have pleaded Guilty, or been found Guilty, anyway.

And how on Earth anyone could think that Starmer is responsible for the disparity in the laws, and the results of the two cases, is beyond me.

Regardless of whether you regard it as two tier or different offences or other semantic nonsense with the outdated laws in this country, the fact remains a woman got 2 and a half years in prison for a tweet saying she doesn't care if migrant hotels burnt down and a man got nothing for ordering a crowd to cut people's throats. It's wrong on every level and a disgusting indictment on our legal system- utterly shameful

MiloMinderbinder925 · 18/08/2025 21:13

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:09

Because 1 was on twitter of apathy saying she doesn't care and one was in real life to a large crowd using a slitting throat gesture literally calling for murder. They aren't remotely the same to any sane person.

People need to stop treating "cyber crime" as the same as real life. If you received threats in real life it isn't the same as on a daft social media site - both are wrong but to suggest a tweet is like someone at your front door or in Jones' case shouting to a crowd in person is absurd. One of the reason crime has shot through the roof is police are on twitter and fb more than actually policing the streets for low hanging fruit with a cup of coffee in hand,

Unfortunately for her fans, Connolly pleaded guilty to all charges and said she wanted to incite racial hatred which endangered life. She's never denied the charges.

Why you're pretending she was stitched up and completely innocent, when she says she's not, is anyone's guess.

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:16

MiloMinderbinder925 · 18/08/2025 21:13

Unfortunately for her fans, Connolly pleaded guilty to all charges and said she wanted to incite racial hatred which endangered life. She's never denied the charges.

Why you're pretending she was stitched up and completely innocent, when she says she's not, is anyone's guess.

Not a fan, just calling out the disgusting way both cases have been handled so no need to go into ridiculous hysteria about people being fans. The crime committed by Jones was far more serious and stand by everything I've said.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 18/08/2025 21:18

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:09

Because 1 was on twitter of apathy saying she doesn't care and one was in real life to a large crowd using a slitting throat gesture literally calling for murder. They aren't remotely the same to any sane person.

People need to stop treating "cyber crime" as the same as real life. If you received threats in real life it isn't the same as on a daft social media site - both are wrong but to suggest a tweet is like someone at your front door or in Jones' case shouting to a crowd in person is absurd. One of the reason crime has shot through the roof is police are on twitter and fb more than actually policing the streets for low hanging fruit with a cup of coffee in hand,

Did you miss the fact that, at around the time of LC's tweet, people were setting fire to hotels with innocent people in them?

What people say online doesn't just stay in some sort of parallel Internet reality. It impacts on real people. The fact that you are unable to see that is deeply worrying.

TinyIsMyNewt · 18/08/2025 21:18

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 20:59

You're just quoting archaic waffle preached by old fools in grey wigs like the house of Lords which doesn't translate to actual reality of offence committed. Connolly tweeted " set fire to migrant hotels for all I care". It was a tasteless comment but still a throwaway comment when on X. Stop using the precious law as a barometer of fairness - laws are transient which shift from one generation to the next and the same law you worship now will be viewed in the same contempt as laws that stopped women voting 100 years ago are today. The law of the land may be something we have to live by, but it doesn't make it right.

Murderers and child rapists often only serve a few years in prison before getting let out - is that justice? Use common sense and think out of the box, it was a fcking tweet on a social media site. Jones literally said "Slit their throats" whilst Connolly said she doesn't care on twitter. Don't bother throwing anyone a "Bone", you're arguing what Jones did was less serious than Connolly and literally have no sense of proportion on common sense.

We can't just ignore laws because you, personally, don't like them.

Nor can the courts just throw the law out of the window and "think outside the box" - because that's how you get ACTUAL two-tier justice. The whole point of having laws is so that they apply evenly to citizens, without favor. You just want to convict or acquit on the basis of your personal, political biases.

And also, I do think Connolly's tweet was more serious.

A bit of "common sense" for you:

  • after Connolly tweeted about burning down hotels full of asylum seekers, people actually tried to set a hotel full of asylum seekers on fire.

  • after Jones spoke about slitting throats (purportedly of National Front members), no throat-slitting occurred - nor can I find any reports of any violence against right wing groups.

If one of the two of them were inciting violence, and if "common sense" is our sole barometer, then that would also strongly.point to Connolly being guilty and Jones not guilty.

Stop frothing, start thinking.

SerendipityJane · 18/08/2025 21:19

People need to stop treating "cyber crime" as the same as real life. If you received threats in real life it isn't the same as on a daft social media site - both are wrong but to suggest a tweet is like someone at your front door or in Jones' case shouting to a crowd in person is absurd. One of the reason crime has shot through the roof is police are on twitter and fb more than actually policing the streets for low hanging fruit with a cup of coffee in hand,

I broadly agree. However we then remember that as LC was tweeting (and it was the reach of her tweet that made the offence more serious) there were actual real non pretend riots occurring with people terrified for their lives.

LCs tweet was part of that disorder in a way addressing a real life crowd (as you like) wasn't.

I might be persuaded that LCs sentencing could have been different. But that is a far cry from believing her conviction was in any way improper.

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:19

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 18/08/2025 21:18

Did you miss the fact that, at around the time of LC's tweet, people were setting fire to hotels with innocent people in them?

What people say online doesn't just stay in some sort of parallel Internet reality. It impacts on real people. The fact that you are unable to see that is deeply worrying.

Regardless of who was doing what, it doesn't change the fact of what I said. Stop this disingenuous strawman nonsense - " for all I care" is apathy. Far from what Jones did. People should be sentenced on the crime they committed not what other deranged people were doing.

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:22

TinyIsMyNewt · 18/08/2025 21:18

We can't just ignore laws because you, personally, don't like them.

Nor can the courts just throw the law out of the window and "think outside the box" - because that's how you get ACTUAL two-tier justice. The whole point of having laws is so that they apply evenly to citizens, without favor. You just want to convict or acquit on the basis of your personal, political biases.

And also, I do think Connolly's tweet was more serious.

A bit of "common sense" for you:

  • after Connolly tweeted about burning down hotels full of asylum seekers, people actually tried to set a hotel full of asylum seekers on fire.

  • after Jones spoke about slitting throats (purportedly of National Front members), no throat-slitting occurred - nor can I find any reports of any violence against right wing groups.

If one of the two of them were inciting violence, and if "common sense" is our sole barometer, then that would also strongly.point to Connolly being guilty and Jones not guilty.

Stop frothing, start thinking.

We can't ignore laws, but we can look to advance society using common sense. Centuries ago dark haired women were burnt for being witches, women couldn't get mortgages, men controlled every aspect of society but the law changed and the current laws will also changed. Maybe you need to stop frothing and realise discussing how backward many laws are is the way to advance society not just saying " It's the law guvnor" as some kind of moral template for everything.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 18/08/2025 21:24

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:19

Regardless of who was doing what, it doesn't change the fact of what I said. Stop this disingenuous strawman nonsense - " for all I care" is apathy. Far from what Jones did. People should be sentenced on the crime they committed not what other deranged people were doing.

There is no strawman. It wasn't apathy. She literally pleaded guilty to inciting racial hatred. Why do you think you understand her motivations better than she understands them herself?

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:26

TinyIsMyNewt · 18/08/2025 21:18

We can't just ignore laws because you, personally, don't like them.

Nor can the courts just throw the law out of the window and "think outside the box" - because that's how you get ACTUAL two-tier justice. The whole point of having laws is so that they apply evenly to citizens, without favor. You just want to convict or acquit on the basis of your personal, political biases.

And also, I do think Connolly's tweet was more serious.

A bit of "common sense" for you:

  • after Connolly tweeted about burning down hotels full of asylum seekers, people actually tried to set a hotel full of asylum seekers on fire.

  • after Jones spoke about slitting throats (purportedly of National Front members), no throat-slitting occurred - nor can I find any reports of any violence against right wing groups.

If one of the two of them were inciting violence, and if "common sense" is our sole barometer, then that would also strongly.point to Connolly being guilty and Jones not guilty.

Stop frothing, start thinking.

Also to add to my last comment if your logic is " sentences should be based on how other people react " and according to you "no one acted upon Jones' words", by that mad logic if in 5 years someone watching his rant on youtube goes out and slits someone's throat Jones will be re arrested? If not why not?According to you people were following Lucy's apathetic tweet and burning hotels down which is false as the tweet was after reported burnings.

PandoraSocks · 18/08/2025 21:26

"Tweet of apathy" is a weird phrase that has been used by several new posters on this thread in relation to LC's tweet.

What does it mean? Is it a reference to Lucy Connolly saying "set fire to all the fucking hotels full of the bastards for all I care".

MiloMinderbinder925 · 18/08/2025 21:29

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:16

Not a fan, just calling out the disgusting way both cases have been handled so no need to go into ridiculous hysteria about people being fans. The crime committed by Jones was far more serious and stand by everything I've said.

You're expending a lot of effort over some racist you're not a fan off. You're incredibly dismissive of the judicial system so you're hardly interested in that. Jones was found not guilty and the crime he was charged with was legally less serious.

You completely dismissed a legal explanation as to why, therefore it seems you're raging about something you're not actually interested in. And suggesting you're a fan when you're bending over backwards to paint her as innocent, is hardly "hysteria".

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 18/08/2025 21:30

You have got to wonder why some people are so invested in defending a racist tweet.

BeLilacExpert · 18/08/2025 21:32

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 18/08/2025 21:24

There is no strawman. It wasn't apathy. She literally pleaded guilty to inciting racial hatred. Why do you think you understand her motivations better than she understands them herself?

No one knows why anyone in a prison cell pleads to anything - likely to be a duty solicitor telling her what to do and threats of a longer term for a deleted tweet in today's clown world. I know you think tweets should receive life in prison and Jones should be knighted for death threats, but the reality is threats in person are always more serious than something said on a social media site represented by a bloody blue bird. She probably isn't very bright and didn't understand the seriousness of what she was pleading guilty to but that doesn't detract away from the insanity of the sentence compared to Jones. A court should prioritise common sense over pleas. There were people saying she got off lightly - she literally got a longer sentence than some child molesters and people like Hugh Edwards found with child porn. That's right as well is it because the law said so -as I said disgusting

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