About Gender neutral loo

[paulhollywoodshairgel]

I was in a museum today and my daughter (15) left me to go to the loo. She then waved me over.. she said to me.. I’d rather not use the gender neutral loo. I said that’s fine and sent her down a level to the ladies. A woman the approached me and preceded to tell me off for not encouraging my daughter to use the GN loo. How she has a trans child and how are they ever going to feel accepted with people like me around. I’m ND and I always second guess myself 10000 times a day. I wasn’t in the wrong was I?? I just said ok go and use the other separate loo. Surely my child can pee wherever she feels comfortable??!! I hate conflict so I just said ok and walked off!

I'll repeat myself.

Compelled language over pronouns is the thin end of the wedge that leads to situations where victims of rape are compelled to use "she" and "her" when describing their rapist in court.
This is something that has actually happened, it's not a worse case hypothetical scenario.

Compelling people to use wrong sex pronouns is wrong.

https://womensliberationfront.org/news/da-compelled-to-call-alleged-male-rapist-she/her

I WILL NOT BE COMPELLED TO USE WRONG SEX PRONOUNS!

It is not kind to women, it is fucking cruel! Why do women have to put men over and above themselves every. single. time. according to you? Misogyny, that's why. So NO!

Femphobia and misogyny is very comparable to racism. Male Supremacy is very comparable to racism. Both are rooted in fear, prejudice, anger, misunderstanding and dehumanisation of an oppressed class.

Yes, funny how Tandora chooses the side of the men every single time and in every single example. It couldn't be more clear they don't care about 'trans'. This is solely a Male Supremacist movement. The fact they don't cede at all that males are the oppressors and female the oppressed, and females are forced to cosplay in males cultural appropriation of us shows without a doubt, this is Male Supremacists we are dealing with. It was never about trans. Ever.

Racism is an actual thing. Humans really do have different skin colour- and have been wrongly oppressed for this. It CANNOT be compared to life choices - eg pretending you have changed gender.

Oh look. The TRAs co-opting black people's history, language and struggles again like the parasitic colonisers they are. Unsurprising that those who appropriate womenhood also appropriate everything else.

Stop arguing by analogy - it's dumb and irrelevant. Base your argument on the facts at hand.

I think it makes it very clear that there is a huge conflict for people who claim to be both feminists and supporters of trans rights. The fight for the star prize of getting TW fully accepted as women in situations where sex dictates rights, has been lost with the SC ruling. So there's now a choice to be made between supporting women's rights to single sex provision knowing this excludes TW, or fighting to reduce single sex provision so that TW face less exclusion. I'm interested in how you will navigate that. For example, if a service was offered to women, would you go as far as to argue it didn't need to be single sex in order to have TW included? If it would depend on the nature of the service, which ones would you be happy to be made unisex?

No one is transphobic for correctly sexing men as male.

Using correct sex pronouns for men is not in any way comparable to racism.

I think you are aware of how offensive you are actually being by appropriating the real life harms done to people because of racism in service to men, and I think this is an unpalatable but good example of Operation Let them Speak.

This. They can’t argue using their own examples because most people aren’t convinced of the injustice of men being called men or excluded from women’s spaces. So they have to appropriate other people’s much more legitimate and compelling campaigning.

Oh I know Tandora doesn't actually care about trans people, they've proved that numerous times by saying that they'd support trans identifying people who wish to ignore their biological sex in a medical setting.

Essentially Tandora is advocating for trans identifying people to receive wrong sex care which could prove fatal to them, or in one sad case caused a miscarriage for a trans identifying female.

This is not kind at all, this is monumentally stupid. Tandora has repeated this support for wrong sex care even when presented with the issues that a trans identifying person could face in that scenario.

Evidently Tandora doesn't really care about trans identifying people, or Tandora would be advocating for proper medical care.

Edit for S&G

I don't know which is worst - TRAs ram-raiding of black history, feminism or gay rights. They'd claim a transwoman led the Peasants Revolt if they had any knowledge of history before 1960s.

Wasn't there was a fad for a while (is it still happening?) where the TRAs in full seriousness "transed" historical figures like Joan of Arc? So according to them JoA was not a woman, she was a trans man🙄

Oh definitely. I'm pretty sure Tandora has already partaken in this nonsense.

I enjoy how it all falls part when they try to commandeer Elagabalus. On the face of it, not implausible as a man who larped as a woman. On the other, a complete monster.

That’s my point. There isn’t anything in the statistics which points to GN spaces increasing the number of women who are assaulted.

Human rights organisations have a ton of data on this and have invested heavily in providing single-sex toilet facilities in places like rural India to massively reduce sexual violence.

What 😂😂.
no idea where you get any of this utter incoherence from.

This is deranged slander .

Anyway this thread isn’t about me, so how about we stop the personal attacks and bullying now and get back to having a grown up , civilised , exchange of ideas about a subject we see very differently .

In the Netherlands a lot of public lavatories were mixed sex, and in a bustling crowded environment I had no issues with that, everyone was just doing what they need to, no one was getting a thrill from being near particular other people, and if anyone had been acting in a creepy or inappropriate way there would be plenty of witnesses to step in and challenge the behaviour. This is a totally different kind of situation than a lavatory that is ostensibly labelled for women but there is a general understanding that any man who wishes to can go in and shouldn't be challenged, but has a right to coopt the unconsenting participation of female users into their fantasy validation. Overtly mixed sex loos that are busy and full of people seem much safer than that.

What I didn't experience and would have caution about would be a mixed sex loo somewhere or somewhen of low demand, ie there might regularly be no one else in there, or only one other person. That makes being in a lavatory the same level of risk as walking down a street late at night knowing that there's very few people about and seeing one other person, and not knowing whether or not that's a risk. We know that statistically we will probably be fine, but we have learned to our cost not to rely on that probability, and that severely limits our freedom compared to thr freedom that males experience.

I think people on both sides of the debate have interpreted its core implication correctly, ie, that TW are not women in circumstances where sex matters. Which is why one side is satisfied and the other staging protests

nicely put, though I also agree with eresh It’s not just that trans identified males are “not women”, they are men

Where I got the idea from was the threads (plural) where you were advocating for trans identifying patients to obscure their biological sex in a medical setting if they were in need of health care.

Here's a thread last year where you do this. I've seen you do it on other threads too going back further.

Page 36 | Feminists against sex segregation in sports | Mumsnet

In all fairness you have adjusted your tactics more recently. I think this may have been after having the dangers to trans identifying patients who obscure their biological sex pointed out to you repeatedly by GC feminists who actually cared about the dangers.

Your newer take on medical care for trans identifying patients is talked about in this thread. This is #2 of the threads that was set up for Tandora to explain what they meant by the phrase in the title. It was... interesting as always, shall we say.

Page 31 | "Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2 | Mumsnet

This is complete and utter garbage nonsense.

I would never “advocate” for someone else to do anything r.e. Their own personal decisions about their body , medical care and what they share with others.

Well yes, that is the obvious conclusion for those of us who believe that human beings are either men or women, so if one is not a woman one must by default be a man. However, this remains a sticking point for those who believe thete is a special category of people who are not men 'just because' they are male.
There is little option but to accept the SC ruling has confirmed they are not women, but they will not extrapolate from this that not a woman = a man. And so on we go, round and round.

People think a lot of foolish things though.

the SC ruling has confirmed they are not women

why do you keep saying this?

You’re quoting the wrong person.

But obviously they aren’t women. That’s why the Supreme Court ruled that the keystone piece of equality legislation in the U.K. should treat them as men. Because they are men in every sense, despite the legal fiction of a GRC.