My Incel father and brother

[Inshockandsome]

I am not sure what to do.

All of my life I have lived under a cloud of misogyny and I have been treated like a second class citizen in my own home. There to serve and know my place. Initially as a child I became a tom boy to take the pressure off - because I recognised my femininity as a vulnerability.

I was beaten, demeaned and consistently emotionally abused. I was objectified, and told my education doesn’t matter as I will just be married and have children anyway. It was a toxic environment to grow up in.

My father openly demeans all of the women around us - waiters, bar people - anyone that is female. The women he hated most were strong women or anyone that dared to challenge him. He said he hated ‘kids’ and never intended to have a relationship with me. I was there only to keep my mother ‘quiet’. My mother has always stood by him, despite his open contempt of her.

I found my voice as a teenager and stood up to him. He reacted with extreme violence, he would use ritual humiliation and weaponised my body against me. A severe eating disorder followed, multiple suicide attempts before I escaped.

My grandmother (his mother) died and he didn’t seem too bothered. His main interest was his inheritance.

Fast forward to today, my mother tells me he follows certain ‘groups’ on line. He speaks openly now of his feelings around strong men, weak women etc. I had to remove my children from their lives years ago. I have stopped contact for many years.

My brother is now the same. Ruined by his enduring dislike of women, despite having a wife and 3 x dds.

Father is now seriously ill and I have no idea what to do.

Oh my god, the opposite of having touched a nerve.
I am sorry you found my post insensitive.
What I was actually trying to say, and it is totally my opinion, as a random on the internet is….
i read your post and felt for you. As in, I really feel like you are giving him too much headspace. Some people are deeply unhappy in themselves and prefer others to be unhappy with them. I don’t know why, it makes no sense to me, but these people do exist.
Your father, appears to be one of these people. But……you don’t need to try and understand him, you don’t NEED to forgive him or have closure. There is another way to feel healthy, which is just to accept that, he is a sad man who has missed out on something wonderful and just let him go and move on.
sometimes people just aren’t that great. It happens. All your analysis and understanding hasn’t got you closure or peace.
i was just saying, maybe, I mean really maybe, you just make peace with yourself xx

Honestly let him go to his grave and pray god is not a woman.

By your own accounts he doesn’t like you so what good is there for you or him to be gained in seeing him? Let his son tend to him.

I would post him a long letter, telling him exactly what you think of him. 12 years of therapy long. That way you would leave nothing unsaid, and you would give him an opportunity to reflect and maybe even say or do something that would redeem him slightly. If not, you would have at least said everything you want to say. It would not even matter hugely if he chooses never to read it or if for some reason it doesn't get to him -- you would have written it. Whether you do this or not, though, you sound like a truly wonderful person and you will be ok.

Ah okay. I do accept him as he is, he hasn’t really taken much headsoace at all to now - I have managed to have a good life. Although I obviously do think of him from time to time. The news of his illness has raised questions, I think it was always going to. I wondered what others experiences of similar situations? How they manage final days etc?

He abused you physically and emotionally and failed as a father on all measures. i think he should die with that knowledge. Don't have anything to do with him.

I am so sorry you endured that and so sad that attitudes like that prevail.

I think you want to go and talk to him from what you are saying.

Now he may not take on any of what you say but maybe just saying it would be healing?
He damaged you.
Maybe he cannot get what damage he did but maybe this is his last chance to grasp what he did to you and maybe there is a value in communicating that.

Just because someone is dying does not make them into a good person.
He seems like he failed as a father and a human being and you paid the price for that. I think this could be the last chance you have to talk to him and I think I would want to try because like you I also worry about getting closure one day when my father is gone and yet I know he does not get the impact of how he was when we were growing up.

He is of course the one who needs to ask your forgiveness but these characters who act this way are proud and rarely see what they have done.You do not know how a final conversation could go till you have it but I think you are leaning to wanting to have that with him so I would be inclined to do that and set up some therapy for before and afterwards- a good therapist not a piss poor average one just showing up to pay their bills every week because plenty of people train as therapists for that reason and you need a good quality therapist and there are many many average and bad ones out there. So tread carefully there.
Good luck- follow your gut on this.

It is so positive you recognised what a healthy relationship should look like and found it and your children will learn the same from you.

many people repeat abusive patterns from their parents but you’ve broken that cycle.

your birth father does not deserve a second thought from you and maybe it will be a relief when he dies.

@InshockandsomeI have to admit that I really don’t understand why you feel you should thank him for the bare basics he did - including not killing you. While you most certainly can be thankful he didn’t actually murder you, the thanks are to be given to the “universe”, not to him.

Why do you think you should tell him this? What will it do for you? Because you’re the only person who matters here. Not him.

All seems to me like you do indeed need more therapy.

Thank you for this message, and to everyone that has supported me on here. I have read every single reply carefully, even if I can’t reply individually.

I am thinking a letter might be a good way to express my feelings - and to share my experiences in childhood, and the hopes I once had for a relationship with him - I would love to finally say ‘my piece’ too, as even to this day I have never been able to finish my sentence, or to even get close to sharing with him the harm he has caused me.

He has never allowed me even the time or space to actually speak. Wouldn’t even entertain the idea of hearing me.

The letter would be for me. Not for him. I expect him to react in the same way he always has, if he even bothers to read it - and he may not.

This is not about making him more comfortable in his last months, it’s about saying the truth out loud. I have always been shut down.

Maybe I can do this as a way to close the book myself, to say goodbye.

Can I just say you write very eloquently & I don’t know if you’ve had counselling or not but I think you should process your experiences through writing / journaling, if you haven’t already, and maybe even think of writing a book one day. Your experience is a powerful & compelling story, especially at a time like this, not only would it help you but if it was published you might be able to make some money out of it!

I’m so sorry you had to endure such an appalling childhood.
I would stay away and live your best life ….and don’t feel guilty as you owe this poor excuse of a man nothing. Ditto for your brother.

Biologically he's your father, but he hasn't show a shred of paternal feeling for you and has caused you no end of harm.

I'd remain NC. He doesn't deserve your grief or mourning.

If you feel you do need to get it off your chest and give yourself the best chance of being heard, then a letter is probably best. I would just write it with no expectations. Given his history it doesn't sound like he is a man who will ever own his faults.

Just erase them. They are both evil and don’t deserve anything. Don’t cover for your mothers as she is just as much as a monster as him.

Write the letter, OP. Say what you want to say, and then send it. And then don't engage any further.

Don't be sucked in to seeing him. And if he writes back to you, maybe get someone else to read it before you do to decide whether it's better for you not to read it. Or just decide upfront that you're not going to read it.

But take the opportunity to say whatever you want or need to say, and then you will have no regrets. Like you say, this is about you, not him.

OP has had 12 years of therapy. There are enough misery memoirs out there without adding to the list.

You owe them nothing , so do nothing .
I didn’t have a childhood like yours and was not physically abused ( other than a smack which back then was what some parents did ) but it still wasn’t a great childhood.
I did the “expected” thing visiting them and so on and supported mum after dad died .
I didn’t even cry when he died , felt nothing.
just wanted to get organised so I could go and sort things out because mum wasn’t feeling capable.
Now a few years on I make sure mum is ok but remotely and only visit occasionally

I would definitely get a bit more therapy around this. You are confusing the social norms around death dying and grief with seeing your dad specifically even after years of no contact.
I think it is worth remembering that even though he is dying, he has not and will not reach out to.you. you don't matter to him. You making contact with him will not make him think or reassess or anything like that. He is literally facing his own mortality and that is not enough to make him consider you in a different way. You won't come close to having an impact.
Regarding the thanking him for the roof and shoes, please don't do this. This is unpicking your years of therapy. Your years of therapy have been to help you understand your intrinsic worth. You were a child. Thanking someone for the bare minimum brings that worth down again. Children are meant to have shoes and a roof. He did nothing special. He did nothing to be thanked for. In fact, had he been a terrible provider, your mum would likely have received more help and been able to get out. His 'hard work' kept you all enslaved. He didn't do it in love and duty or responsibility, don't thank him for it.

The letter is safer. In person I could come to more harm. I don’t need or want a happy ending. I have that with my own family. I have my happy ending every day I wake up to a safe house, with no shouting, violence or fear running through the very walls of the place. I wake up and I will hug the first person I see, turn on the radio and feel largely at peace.

I don’t expect him to suddenly see me, or recognise how awful he has been. Or to say sorry. I don’t need his apologies. It’s too late for that.

What I need now is to recognise he is leaving the world soon, to thank him for the life I have despite the early days, I have gone on to do great things from a very difficult beginning, and wish him well. I might touch on the pain, the loss, the time it took to recover. I might not spare him, and tell him precisely what it did to me - it shattered me for many years. I might just let the truth flow on to the page, and send it exactly as it is. Unaltered.

Will your mum expect you to step up and care for her once your dad has died? She did nothing to protect you from your terrible father and actually justified his abuse because his job supported the household.

Your dad couldn't have got away with the awful stuff he did without her collaboration and support.

Please don't feel responsible for your mum who was negligent and uncaring at best and complicit at worst.

Write him a letter.
Express yourself honestly.
Thank him for what you want to thank him for (if anything) and tell him what damage his violence caused you and your brother. Remind him that he earnt his no contact with his grandchildren. Tell him he raised a strong, competent woman who protects her children. Say farewell and that you will be there for your Mum. Write everything you need to say.
Visit, or send letter in post, to say Goodbye.

Ask your children whether they want to see him before he dies. Make sure he is sickly and unable to be violent. It might be important that you and your children see him - only you know whether to see him.

Gosh, I think I would go just to say ‘ not so tough now, are you’.

I would dance on his fucking grave.

Totally missing the point here, but how can he be Incel if he’s married and has kids? 😳

Dying would make no difference to me, I would not be getting back in touch, he will definitely still use everything against you. He won’t see the error of his ways. If you’re happy and content, I’d leave him alone to die a (hopefully) painful death. Sorry if that sounds blunt and extreme, but no way would I give that man head space.

I hope you feel okay and continue to do so 💐

At some point you might find it helpful (for yourself or others) to share that letter, or a version of it, with your brother and mother, or even your brother's wife and daughters. And your own loved ones. I'd keep a few copies if I were you.