To think this is closer to a normal childhood than to extreme abuse?

[Greensl100]

I know you can’t and shouldn’t try to measure things like this but I am told that this sort of stuff constitutes extreme abuse and I just don’t think it does. I actually think it is within the realms of a normal childhood from the 90s.

Examples…

one occasion of parent trashing child’s bedroom

leaving 15 year old in home for a week while parents went away (in same country)

calling child self centred

saying child needed to be more like child’s friend

forcing child to spend time around a pet that caused child non life threatening allergic reaction

pulling hair and smacking

not allowing teen to use washing machine or cook for themselves in home

When left home and relationship broke down in twenties, told that they were not welcome in the family home and that if they visited they were a guest

these are some examples and of course I know none of them are brilliant parenting but I don’t think it equals extreme abuse?

Same here; Can only imagine what my late DM (born 1930) would have said had she heard of a parent trashing a child's room.

I grew up in the 80s and if a friend had experienced this I would have thought of it as abusive even then, maybe not used that word. I would have been horrified, I don't know anyone who lived like this. Maybe home alone at 15, I know someone who did this because they had exams approaching and there was a family emergency. I was jealous! Keeping the pet despite an allergy is awful and abusive IMO. Not all examples carry equal weight but all together yes it sounds abusive. I'm not sure how to define extreme, I guess that's subjective..but to me this sounds extreme indeed. I'm sorry OP for your experiences.

No - what you are describing is abusive.

But you realise you were not omnipresent and it was normal for many others?

I was also there and it was like that.

It's abuse for sure. It's not extreme in my opinion, I reserve that for extreme violence, incest and the most horrific things, but neglect and emotional abuse take a part of your soul you can't get back.

I stand by my statement that while there were and are abusive parents, and its a known thing that children who are abused believe that its what its like for everybody, that taken across society, at the time, what the op experienced was not normal.

Fuck this.
Nothing a CHILD, whose brain hasn't even finished developing, can do constitutes the need for them to be hit, emotionally abused or have their possessions trashed.
I was treated badly as a kid and I will never do anything like any of this toy own children, no matter how they behave.
I'm their mum and they'll never be guests in their own home.

No, I wouldn't say it is extreme. Some elements ARE abusive but I wouldn't say on the extreme end, some are unkind/don't paint the parents in a good light. Leaving your 15 year old for a week it would depend on the circumstances and how close to 16. I believe I was left for a couple of night's at that age. The following year (just turned 16) I was left for a week to a fortnight as I didn't want to go away and had a summer job. My grandparents lived close by though but weren't watching for me or caring for me, however they were there.

Hi OP. I have not experienced any of the things on your list and I'd never do them to my kids.

Having said that I totally understand your need for nuance. You have a picture of your childhood and of your parents and now someone else is telling you that your picture isn't accurate. I think most kids also want to believe that their parents were good or at least not the worst. I have read that we have evolved to be loyal and forgiving of our parents even if they are abusive because evolutionary sticking with our parents at any cost is what ensured our survival.

Except for the hair pulling i personally wouldn't say any of the things on your list constitute extreme abuse unless they happened regularly and were part of a general pattern of cold, neglectful and careless pattern (so maybe accompanied by possibly smaller but frequent incidents).

I think, also context and culture do matter here. I also grew up in the 90s and I don't think my parents would have liked to leave me alone but in an emergency I can imagine them doing that and they left me alone when I was 16 for health reasons (though they hired a cook and asked a relative to check on me regularly). More recently my parents' last night nurse used to leave her 14 year old son alone at home every night and sometimes for a few days. He found it scary and hated it but she didn't have a choice and did it so she could provide for him. There is no way I would call her abusive but rather it's sad that our society allowed a situation like this to happen.

Viewed through my lens my dad has been verbally and financially abusive to my mum but she believes and is desperate to believe that he is a good person as he didn't hit her, didn't cheat on her and had no so called bad habits. The society around her wouldnt call my dad abusive and my dad doesn't realise it himself and was shocked when I told him. They are from a different time and a different culture and it was normal for men to behave like this. Time and culture doesn't change how unfair and wrong it is but it does provide nuance and maybe an explanation. In a different society my dad might have behaved differently or my mum might have called him out on it.

I can kind of relate to your frustration with the therapist labelling your experience as extremely abusive when that's not how you see it. I had a similar experience with my therapist and with my psychiatrist who insisted thst certain experiences I've had would have had a lasting and damaging impact on me when I didn't see it that way (e.g. growing up in a foreign country, moving to a different country as a teenager, etc. I saw them as great experiences that widened my horizon but my psychiatrist in particular insisted that it would have been damaging, which to.me seemed dismissive, ignorant and possibly racist).

Anyway, my point is these are your experiences and you have a right to label them as you understand them. You obviously understand that the things you listed are not acceptable, not normal in the society and time you grew up in and in most contexts would be considered abusive.

I think extreme abuse is often linked to the horrendous things that would come with a prison sentence. Crimes against children that physically and mentally scar them. But extreme abuse can be more of a ‘death by a thousand cuts’ situation - each one you can brush off as an adult and reason why it happened (the context, understanding that no one is perfect etc). The problem is, it sounds like the things on your list weren’t done to you when you had the ability to realise it wasn’t about you. To children in particular, these things are extreme because they are done by the people who are meant to be your safe place and love you and , as a child, you blame yourself entirely for their behaviour.

Your therapist will have more info/context than we do so I would try exploring the idea that maybe these things did have a profound impact on you. You may explore it and conclude you still don’t think it’s a big deal. But just try sitting with the idea that it was bad and may have really hurt you and see where it takes you.

This is exactly right. As a child you don't have the capacity to see that. I spent years in therapy working it out as a young adult, and only fully got there when my sister opened up to me that she felt the same.

Out of interest how badly does a child have to behave so that an adult is violent to a child? Have you some kind of sliding scale?

Sounds similar to my childhood but both my parents were abused so there wasn’t a great deal of hope there. I still have a relationship with them but it’s especially strained with my father. I haven’t had therapy.

Was there an atmosphere of secrecy about their treatment of you? I experienced some of what was on your the list and at the time was told that it was perfectly normal, if not necessary to deal with someone like me, but when I look back I was always instructed to never discuss what went on at home and my mother always denied my version of events. This indicates to me that she knew fine well that her behaviour was unacceptable and would be viewed negatively by others ie abuse.

(Edited to add that I was a child of the 80s and 90s)

I would say that every single thing on your list is abusive OP and having had a fairly normal childhood with parents who did often shout and where I got grounded etc, I’ve not experienced any one thing from it.

’Extreme’ depends on comparison. Compared to a child who daily experienced CSA then no, it’s not extreme. But to someone who had a fantastic childhood and a loving family (I include myself in this) put together, these things paint a picture of extreme abuse.

Well yes that's what your post certainly reads as.

Abusive and not normal childhood

For me

calling child self centred
saying child needed to be more like child’s friend

These aren't extreme abuse.

But a lot of the rest are.

If it's any comfort, OP, I was certainly told, in a moment when my non-abusive parent was really angry about something I'd done, that she wished I could be more sensible like a neighbour's daughter. It was said in frustration (I'd done something really idiotic, a little thing that was going to cause expense that we couldn't easily afford) and because I know my mum loved me, and because I knew the neighbour's daughter was extremely sensible and would never have done what I'd done, I could see mum's point and I did subsequently try to be more thoughtful.

I am not damaged by it, and I wonder, if that's how low the bar of extreme abuse is set, whether there are any of us who haven't been badly abused. Context is everything and there's a lot of black and white thinking going on on this thread.

I think context is key. Most of those things in and of themselves are not extreme levels of abuse but as a picture, I think you’re minimising. My DM has minimised some of her worst behaviours, such as the angry smacking. It was abusive but not extreme I think. I was also left behind by choice for holidays at that age, told when I was being selfish, expected to pull my weight in the home. I was never told I wasn’t family, subject to allergies or refused cleanliness etc. those things are abuse, absolutely and taken as a whole with everything else, paint the picture of a grim childhood.

its hard to come to terms with as an adult. Especially if you are still in contact and they deny it was unreasonable. It was, though.

I suspect you have also sanitised your list for the post.

The things you’ve listed ARE extremely abusive.

I lived in a household where I was patented dysfunctionally at times and nothing approached this level of abuse.

Child of the 70’s/80’s here - these are not in my experience - apart from maybe being told off for being selfish or asked why can’t you behave like your sister etc . But thrashing rooms, pulling hair, not permitted to cook or do laundry, not being welcome at home as a young adult - far from normal. I’m so sorry that you had to experience this

She told you that once. From what you are saying there is no laundry list of other times and other actions that your mother took to hurt or punish you or because they lost their temper. Its not the low bar people are setting, its the inability of people to understand the difference between one sentence said once in anger and a whole list of abusive behaviours.

Forcing a child to spend time around a pet that they have allergic reaction to is on its own abusive. Leaving a 15 year old child alone for a week. Not allowing them to cook or use washing machine. These parents are evil. I can't understand why this person would want to visit these parents under any circumstances. Probably better for them to stay away.