To think rich people steal money all the time and that’s often why they’re rich?

[MyAmusedOpalCrab]

We hear so much about “hard work” and “smart investments” but let’s be honest, so many rich people didn’t get wealthy by being ethical. From dodgy business practices to exploiting workers, tax dodging, insider deals and straight-up corruption, wealth often comes at someone else’s expense.

Governments bail out billionaires while ordinary people struggle to afford rent. CEOs cut wages and benefits while pocketing massive bonuses. Huge corporations find loopholes to avoid taxes while the rest of us get squeezed.

Obviously not every rich person is a thief but AIBU to think that a lot of them are? That the system is rigged in their favour and they keep getting richer by bending or outright breaking the rules?

Agreed.

Why? Do you believe benefit cheats are a bigger financial burden on the state than the obscenely wealthy who don't pay their way?

Depends how you mean by "don't pay their way". Most obscenely rich people will be paying huge amounts of tax in various ways, and as they're least likely to be excessive users of public services, they'll easily be paying more than they cost the country. So they are paying their way in that respect. Presumably what you mean is that you want them to pay huge sums for other people's services too, i.e. political redistribution of wealth - that's a completely different subject!

It is not that simple, but if you are saying raising minimum wage and benefits would fuel inflation, you are by definition also saying it would help the economy via demand side growth no?

I think by don’t pay their way you could argue what are they paying in as a % of their income or wealth. For instance, a low income household pays a large chunk of what they have as VAT often but a wealthy household would be much lower. Moreover, the fact Sunak could pay an effective rate of 22% on a £multi million income when he was PM shows how it works in the favour of those with high asset wealth. That’s before you even bring into play loopholes such as collaterisation

I think you’ll find that China is busy buying up most of the worlds resources..

I heard an interview recently with a China trade person saying they were starting to look for places to outsource their labour to. That could be us if the country does buck its ideas up soon. The world dynamics are changing rapidly.

So course they are. When you add the total of not only what they actual take but what they should be contributing if they worked to their potential.

It’s still a drop in the ocean by comparison.

these are just generalisations, all types of people abuse the system...

Outsource their labour?

Please explain, thanks.

Some cost the state a lot more than others.

We've been outsourcing to cheap Chinese labour for years. E.g. making clothes, plastic shit etc. China has been developing quickly is starting to look for lower cost regions itself - hence the level of Chinese activity in Africa. The global picture is changing rapidly. We don't keep up it could be us.

Keep on believing that if you want.

Keep denying facts if you want to.

Benefit fraud cost the UK £6.5bn last year alone. The largest pool of unpaid tax comes from small businesses £15bn - that is of the declared earning before you consider cash in hand jobs.

So £21.5bn could be saved if people paid what they have declared they are due to pay and stopped stelling from their fellow citizens.

What are your facts?

Theres a massive amount of prejudice and pre-judging here on both sides. Back off unless you really (and I mean really) know the FACTS. Sweeping generalisations start wars. We live in a democracy. You can all vote. Get out there and use it.

Benefit cheats see the worst because they are stealing my taxes and not working so not contributing their own tax .

So you admit tax fraud costs almost three times more than benefit fraud but because it’s largely small businesses benefit fraud is worse. Make it make sense!

That is a different point. You were referring the wealthy not paying their way, the point of this thread was that the weathly steal. Small business owners are generally not wealthy - they are hairdressers, or plumbers etc

Where is your evidence that the wealthy are stealing? Facts please.

It’s the point I’ve been making throughout the thread. 🤷‍♀️

Again no facts......

This is way off topic now. That small business tax situation is not theft by the rich. HMRC documents why it’s happened and the main factors are errors due to the complexity of tax, small businesses lacking proper accounting, misclassification of expenses and other accidental factors. Only 14% is actual tax evasion as it’s criminally understood or £3.9b (the actual gap is £28b not the figure quoted in your post). Most of the underpayment is small businesses owners struggling to get by… the working class by my definition. Larger businesses have to be audited by third parties making this kind of accident much harder (though still possible due to the complexity of large accounts). The reasons done pay little tax are all artefacts of the tax system such as the ability to locate your HQ in a lower tax regime or to receive credits against certain activities like R&D or capital expenditure.

You just posted the facts! Make up your mind.

So we are in agreement - excellent. The problem isn't the rich stealing. It is normal people not paying what they owe in either the tax that is due or outright stealing benefits.