To think rich people steal money all the time and that’s often why they’re rich?

[MyAmusedOpalCrab]

We hear so much about “hard work” and “smart investments” but let’s be honest, so many rich people didn’t get wealthy by being ethical. From dodgy business practices to exploiting workers, tax dodging, insider deals and straight-up corruption, wealth often comes at someone else’s expense.

Governments bail out billionaires while ordinary people struggle to afford rent. CEOs cut wages and benefits while pocketing massive bonuses. Huge corporations find loopholes to avoid taxes while the rest of us get squeezed.

Obviously not every rich person is a thief but AIBU to think that a lot of them are? That the system is rigged in their favour and they keep getting richer by bending or outright breaking the rules?

The largest component of "tax fraud" per official HMRC figures is the black economy and small businesses, NOT "the rich"!

I didn’t say the rich committed tax fraud. I’ve actually said they don’t need to because the rules are written to benefit them. I was simply pointing out that benefit fraud isn’t the massive drain people seem to think.

I think you’re missing the point here. Posters are getting bent out of shape about benefit fraud when tax evasion costs the country many multiples more. It doesn’t really matter who’s cheating HMRC and consequently the rest of us.

But it depends if you think tax is fair. I don’t. Richer people shouldn’t pay a higher percentage, it should be a flat rate for everyone, as in many other countries

So I don’t see tax evasion as crime; if you’ve worked for your money, you should be able to keep most of it. It’s wise to keep your liabilities as low as possible.

Living solely on someone else’s tax is an issue to me, unless you’re disabled.

Not everyone sees things in the same way.

But it depends if you think tax is fair.

No it doesn’t. People on PAYE don’t have the option to decide it isn’t fair and they just won’t pay it. And of course those with the most should pay more. Utterly ridiculous to tax the people at the bottom at the same rate as the uber wealthy.

ETA It makes no difference if you think tax evasion isn’t a crime. The UK legal system judges that it is and imprisons extreme offenders.

Not really. People at the bottom benefit from the tax free personal allowance and probably augment their wages with benefits such as UC etc, so their "net" percentage will be a lot lower if not negative.

Agree. Taxguru were you the poster who did a really good, in depth post about why Britain can’t simply ‘wealth tax’ its way out of financial disaster?

A moderately thorough google search informs me that perhaps 10-15% of the countries on Earth have a flat income tax. Since Russia moved to progressive taxation, none of them is a remotely major economy.

In particular, IIRC there was a claim on MumsNet not long ago that some Scandinavian countries have a flat income tax. I looked into this explicitly and the only one that does is Greenland, which has a fairly flat wealth distribution anyway.

Agree! The thing is higher earners DO pay far more tax than others anyway because they earn more, therefore contributing loads more tax , I honestly cant see why people cant see this!! In fact it blows my mind!! But then we all think differently. Mumsnet would be boring if we were all the same I guess 🙃

Yep, and use far less public services. Using private healthcare and schools saves the state more money too, as well as not claiming anything.

But they’re the devil to some.

Well I can only conclude its Jealousy.

Politics of envy beloved by Labour supports and politicians like Rachel who bases her policies on jealously rather than common sense and logic.

Like all sweeping generalisations this is nonsense. Higher rate tax payers also benefit from the personal allowance until they hit £100k - and reduced NI. Most of the working population isn’t claiming UC, only 37% are in work claims - 2.7 million out of the employed population of 34 million.

Using private healthcare and education is a choice.

Never said it wasn’t.

I said it saves the state money.

It may well do, it’s a choice that has nothing to do with taxation. And let’s not pretend it’s altruism.

No I'm not a billionaire (no where close! Lol!) but I'm now debt free thanks to working the above plan after falling into a belter of a consumer debt trap. I'm no longer worrying about why I don't have money as every £ is now accounted for. I now have an emergency fund. You probably wouldn't consider me rich but compared to where I started or indeed where I ended up in 2020 when I was making decisions about how to feed my kids which included not feeding me, I consider myself rich because I was hell bent on making sure I would not find myself in that position again. I don't begrudge anyone who has more than me because in all honesty, while they have more than me, they also have more to loose. There are also opportunities to learn how they did it and replicate in my own life. I love hearing people's success stories because I might just learn something and it will never detract from the success in my own journey. A lot of people look rich because they have flash cars and houses and multiple holidays a year to far flung destinations but a lot of it is debt. Look up Dave Ramsay and the baby steps - it might just be a turning point for you.

Poor people steal money as well

And it'll somehow be better if they leave?

I mean it may well be the "politics of envy" for some people, but I can assure you not everyone! I'm in a household with income in the "top 1%" and I absolutely don't begrudge paying the tax I have to. It's fair that we get taxed at a higher rate and lose the tax free allowance because how else will stuff be paid for? You can't expect someone earning say £17k a year to pay tax at 40%. They'd have nothing less to live on.
What I do resent though, as I've said MANY times before on this thread is the way the ultra rich managed to wriggle out of their fair tax payments. And the fact that so many people on here seem to want to defend that. It's crazy.
Oh and we use state schools, and the NHS. We would also expect to rely on the fire service or police if we should need them one day, and we like to use public parks. In fact I'd be happy to pay higher taxes, but only if that meant improving services for everyone.

Of course they invest in the UK, whether they are British or immigrants. Do you think they just pitch a tent in Hyde Park and sit on their massive piles of £££? 🤣 They run companies, invest in markets, buy properties, goods and services, employ staff, and spend the money which keeps shops and restaurants afloat; all the things you obviously hate the wealthy for.

So you admit that both things are true. No deflection; both issues are equally bad.

Hmm. Or you could say - they buy up properties they don't need and leave them empty, driving up prices for everyone and adding to the housing crisis.
They run companies, often paying their workers shit wages so they can take their profits and we - the taxpayer - have to make up the difference to an amount someone can actually live on with Universal Credit. All the while paying minimal taxes as they are registered in a tax haven offshore.
They don't really spend their massive amounts because they already have more than they could spend so they hoard it (unlike people who actually need the money who would be spending it)
And again, I'm not talking about your doctor's on £150k a year, or even bankers really on sat £300k a year. I'm talking mega rich. (Probably obvious)

I don’t hate the wealthy by any means (and you don’t have any idea of my net worth).

I asked for a statistic. I can cite the Cambridge Industrial Innovation Report of 17Sept 2024 amongst many others for concerns about our declining private sector.

Sorry , wrong quotation above. This one.

Now, I don’t hate the wealthy by any means, and I cannot imagine why username is making assumptions about my net worth. On to my message above.