To wish Scottish nationalists would just bloody drop it

[Fragmentedbrain]

How can they have learned nothing from Brexit? Why don't people understand the precious value of stability and safe supply chains?

Re this: www.heraldscotland.com/news/25355082.rebels-plot-secret-meeting-perth-prior-snp-conference/

I want Scotland to be independent.

There was a referendum in 2014, making a once in a generation decision, where the arguments were laid out, and without the lying and deception that was part of the Brexiteers campaign in 2016. The people of Scotland made a decision, I think the wrong one, but decisively.

A generation is at least 20 years, the government of the UK are avowedly one to keep the UK as it is, so let's talk about how best to run Scotland under current arrangements and leave talk of IndyRef 2 to at least the middle of the next decade.

The SNP performance in government is an argument against independence.

@Havanananana “The last 35 years has seen the creation of many new countries in Europe - Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Czechia etc. Had anyone told you 40 years ago that any of these would have existed as vibrant, independent states, you'd have said they were mad”

No I wouldn’t! Nobody would’ve said that! They were nations already, why wouldn’t such a thing have been possible? (leaving aside collapse of the Soviet Union, which isn’t exactly a parallel to anything we’re talking about here)

Of course Scotland could do the same, but it would be Scottish in character – ie what it is already, which is basically the same as England, maybe with a slightly more Irish feel but not much. It isn’t going to become Scandinavian, why would it?

🤣

Ps Nicola your book is not well written.

Yes a lot of Scottish people felt / feel angry that they voted against Scottish independence in order to stay in EU, but were dragged out anyway due to Brexit vote

Well, that's happening in England too so no difference there.

Frankly all Scotland's current crop of politicians are dire - although no worse than the English ones which I've no desire to have either.

@Sskka "They [Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Czechia etc] were nations already, why wouldn’t such a thing have been possible?"

These were not already nations (in 1990-93) and had hardly ever existed as independent countries at any time during the previous 1,000 years.

" ... leaving aside collapse of the Soviet Union, which isn’t exactly a parallel to anything we’re talking about here"

The collapse of what remains of what was once, just 150 years ago, the wealthiest and most powerful Empire on the planet would certainly be a major event in world political history. Although the Irish State came into being in 1919, the Republic of Ireland in its current form has only existed since the Republic of Ireland Act of 1948.

If history has taught us one thing it is that things do not remain the same for ever.

Yes, but aren’t we in agreement on that?

I haven't got used to Brexit, I don't want a Scotxit as well. Brexit is a very good lesson in why it would be a bad idea. And so is Putin invading Ukraine. rUK is not the enemy of Scotland, just as the EU is and was not the enemy of the UK.

Definitely stronger together.

Scotland, unlike Ireland, was not colonised by the English.

The Scottish King became King of England after Queen Elizabeth I died without children in 1603.

The Scottish Parliament then voted to unite with the English one in 1707 to form a British Parliament.

The Battle of Culloden was not an England v Scotland war as it’s often portrayed- it was about who should be King once the last of the Stuarts (Queen Anne) died without children- (a Catholic descendent of the Stuarts or a Protestant descendant of the Stuarts).

I have family on both sides of the border (and don’t actually feel that strongly one way or the other) but let’s stop pretending that Scotland is some poor oppressed colony of the nasty English. It isn’t true and never has been.

i thought the Darien Gap project left Scotland in a perilous financial situation at the end of the 1690s which led ultimately to them agreeing to the union?

@Havanananana

Isn't that what independence is all about - a fundamental shift in societal attitudes and an enormous upheaval in how the country is governed? Why is this not going to happen in Scotland? The Scandi nations are far from being unique - most of western Europe is very similar in terms of equality of wealth and good social, health, educational and other public services. It is the UK that in many areas is the outlier.
Isn't greater equality something to aspire to rather than the situation whereby the rich are getting ever richer and the poor (and many of those not so poor) are in danger of becoming second-class citizens? Isn't greater equality something that is fundamental to a functioning society?

If this is required for successful Scottish independence, has this been presented to the population ( the need for richer people to pay more tax ) along with the current revenues raised by tax vs the expenditure?

Oh please, just go!

Their attempt at empire and look what a disaster that was! 😂

Surely you understand how populations work in democracy? Westminster isn't 92% non-Scottish because of some evil secret plot to thwart and crush the Scots; it's 92% non-Scottish because Scotland represents approximately 8% of the UK population.

Representative numbers are allocated based on population demographics; not just based on how important any one person/town/region/home nation reckons they are and that they thus deserve 2, 5, 10 votes per person whilst everybody else has to make do with just one.

I'm no fan of London whatsoever, but it's very clearly the most major city in the whole UK, based both on population and financial power. Nevertheless, the vast majority of the UK population are not in London, meaning that even mighty London - just like mighty Scotland - were wrenched out of the EU against their collective majority wishes. This is just how democracy works.

We'd just avoid England, and strengthen our other European links...can't wait. ✌️

Many of us did, and would again. HTH

So you think the Scots will give up a generous welfare state and free universal healthcare to gain independence? I don’t think so. Do you know anything about life in Ireland?

They (may have) voted against Scottish independence in order to retain the possibility of staying in the EU (presumably not the 38% of Scots who also voted for Brexit, mind).

That done, and thus remaining a part of the UK, they then participated in a subsequent UK-wide vote - one adult, one vote - and the democratic UK decision was to leave the EU.

It's exactly the same principle as can be seen on a constituency basis in general elections. I live in a very safe Conservative seat, even though I certainly wouldn't vote for them. I can either look at it arrogantly that my fellow constituents are deliberately denying me my wishes and taking away my right to get what I want; or I can look at it with a basic understanding of democracy and accept that the majority disagree with me, and the majority naturally get their way. What they want is no less important to them than what I want is to me; and more of them want it than those of us who don't.

An independent Scotland would be a fine thing except not only did they miss their chance when they turned around at Derby (2nd Jacobite Rbellion) but the SNP aren't worth the big chance the Scottish people gave them.

But at least the people can take comfort from producing, time after time, a bunch of politicians who set the pace at Westminster under the guise of many political parties. Not too shabby I think.

I think there is a difference between what people say in an opinion poll when it matters not a jot and where they will put their X in the cold reality of the polling booth where it matters hugely

Yes there is and repeated referenda and elections have shown us that. People are naturally (small c) conservative. There will always be a swing away from change when it comes to polling day which is why you would need polls showing at least 55% of people in favour of change to have any chance of it passing.

That makes me happy

How vocal were the SNP about the closeness of the Brexit referendum ( 48/52 ) ?

was there anything in the conditions of the first Indy vote or will be in a 2nd which states there has to be a majority of say, 10%?

Nothing in the first one about the size of majority needed