To wish Scottish nationalists would just bloody drop it

[Fragmentedbrain]

How can they have learned nothing from Brexit? Why don't people understand the precious value of stability and safe supply chains?

Re this: www.heraldscotland.com/news/25355082.rebels-plot-secret-meeting-perth-prior-snp-conference/

That 27% figure includes many companies who make money across the UK who are headquartered in London so it doesn't tell the full story.

Having Scotland and Wales leave the UK would certainly damage the amount of money companies headquartered in London would make. Scotland has been in the UK for over 300 years, Wales even longer. Undoing that would cause serious economic shocks for the whole of the UK

Because a lot of companies register their HQ there. They generate their income around the island. London's artificially inflated, to the detriment of the rest of the political union, other parts of England included. They also get the lions share of investment. And because London is part of England, this makes England look superficially better performing, but again, that's because the UK government have made London their focus, for centuries, to the detriment of other nations in the UK.

Damn, you took the words right out of my mouth, re companies registering their HQs in London.

Typical nationalist blame “english” Labour. I don’t rate any of them at the moment but despise what these people have done. Bring it on they’ll be lucky to get their deposit back bunch of clowns

A lot of countries fund their services and healthcare with a population of a lot less than 4m.

Totally agree with this. Sad times

I've never understood why Indy supporters could want to leave a historically successful centuries old union that subsidises them significantly yet be so desperate to join a jumped up trading block that will see them pay more than they receive, and leave them without a currency.

Scotland is a beautiful and proud nation and its people are not being served by seeing everything through the lens of independence.

My mam is Scottish, I was born in Scotland but grew up in the North East of England. Honestly I don't think an independent Scotland is the answer; what we need is to cut London off from the UK and send it floating out to sea. If Scotland becomes independent then the fringe Borderlands areas will be even worse off. Take us with you if you go!

As much as I dislike London, it is a huge generator of the wealth in the UK. We'd all be poorer cutting them adrift.

I wish they had voted leave at the last referendum. Sick of the bloody Scots thinking they are special.

Personally I would rather England leave the union and let the other three nations get on with things.

Are you Edward Longshanks? Just a quick reminder, it's no longer the 13th century

The population of Scotland is about 5.5 million.

Similar to that of Denmark (5.9m) and Norway (5.5m) both of which have excellent public services - in many cases far better than the services provided in Scotland or the UK in general.

Scotland being independent is clearly not the same as Scotland being governed by the SNP. The other established parties could also at any stage form a government if they could attract a majority or co-operate in a coalition - and as the Scottish Parliament is elected by PR, other or new parties might also emerge.

That’s utter bollocks.

It took them 6 years to give us the benefits they claimed they really wanted control over. They got what they wanted from UKgov then right royally fucked up delivering. NHS and education is entirely within their gift to sort. And yet they have both declined considerably under the SNP. You need to be careful what you wish for because if it’s done, then who will you blame for them messing up?

Hope you do get it! Scotland before union was a hellhole. I think it’d be fantastic if they asked England to vote on it - ideally they’d jettison Scotland (no loss) and be free of all the bitterness, whining and complaining.

This phrase makes you seem totally ridiculous. Piles are normal. So what.

Norway has one of the worlds biggest, if not the biggest sovereign wealth funds, which equates to about $350,000 per citizen, comparing it to a basket case Scotland is really not the same.

Norway performs so well fiscally because they never sold out on their oil reserves. You can claim ‘it’s Scotland’s oil” as much as you like, but even if we got full control of it, it wouldn’t give us Norway’s wealth.

Demark has some of the highest taxes in the world. Their welfare system is based on a universal welfare model, not a residual model as we have in Scotland. To change to be the same kind of nation as Denmark would take a fundamental shift in societal attitudes, trust in government, and a huge reduction in income inequality. Wealthy individuals have to be happy to pay more tax to support those less well off. That just isn’t going to happen in Scotland.

Everyone likes to point to Scandi nations and say “see, we can be that” But they are pretty unique across the world.

20 years ago we were told Ireland’s “Celtic Tiger” was our goal. Then we saw what happened in 2008 and how badly it was affected so now it’s not what we aspire to. It’s economy is reliant on multinational companies and that’s not ideal.

We can, of course, be a successful nation but a whole lot of people will suffer to get there.

I think Nicola found your thread next shell be jarking on about her book

"Demark has some of the highest taxes in the world. Their welfare system is based on a universal welfare model, not a residual model as we have in Scotland. To change to be the same kind of nation as Denmark would take a fundamental shift in societal attitudes, trust in government, and a huge reduction in income inequality. Wealthy individuals have to be happy to pay more tax to support those less well off. That just isn’t going to happen in Scotland.
Everyone likes to point to Scandi nations and say “see, we can be that” But they are pretty unique across the world."

Isn't that what independence is all about - a fundamental shift in societal attitudes and an enormous upheaval in how the country is governed? Why is this not going to happen in Scotland? The Scandi nations are far from being unique - most of western Europe is very similar in terms of equality of wealth and good social, health, educational and other public services. It is the UK that in many areas is the outlier.

Isn't greater equality something to aspire to rather than the situation whereby the rich are getting ever richer and the poor (and many of those not so poor) are in danger of becoming second-class citizens? Isn't greater equality something that is fundamental to a functioning society?

Scotland is pretty much devolved from the UK.

They get the benefits of being in it, while managing to extract more from Westminster while having significant control over their own budgets and the ability to raise extra tax.

It's basically a vanity project for the politicians rather than something that will actually make peoples lives in Scotland better. And most of the Scots I know see that.

The benefits to be gained from it really don't come anywhere near outweighing the risks of leaving the UK.

@Havanananana “isn’t that what independence is all about - a fundamental shift in societal attitudes”

Um … no? It would be about reflecting what the actual people who actually live there actually want. Why would it be about pushing through somebody’s utopian project on top of that?

Isn't that what independence is all about - a fundamental shift in societal attitudes and an enormous upheaval in how the country is governed? Why is this not going to happen in Scotland?

Honestly I already feel like I pay a lot of tax, and don't have any desire to pay more, or any trust that those in power would spend it wisely.

I'm sure Glasgow will turn into a lovely Scandinavian-like enclave once they tell all the Jakeys there that their free government subsidised heroin and consumption rooms are going bye-bye because they're unaffordable now, maybe they could attract tourists and sail the cruise ships down the Clyde like they do with the Fjords.

I'm not advocating anyone pushing through somebody's utopian project - merely pointing out that independence would invariably mean a fundamental change in the way that the country (or any country) is run.

If a majority of people voted for this, regardless of who forms the first independent government, then by definition it would reflect what the majority of the actual people who live there actually want.

The last 35 years has seen the creation of many new countries in Europe - Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Czechia etc. Had anyone told you 40 years ago that any of these would have existed as vibrant, independent states, you'd have said they were mad. Even Norway has only been independent for just over 120 years. I live in a European country that was only founded in 1918 and has only existed in its current form since 1955.