To think that there is no hope here?

[Taxed]

52.6% of UK individuals are reliant on the State (that is 35 million people). Only 47.4% are net contributors. How did we get here?

AIBU to think that the UK is now a declining economy that will never recover if this continues to be the case?

I am 49 and a high earner (just shy of the top 1%). My husband is also a high earner and we are thinking of leaving. We don't know where but we know we have to as the situation in the UK is getting worse not better. The only thing that is keeping us here is our son, who is still in secondary school. I am actively encouraging him to consider a future outside of the UK.

I genuinely feel that being ambitious and successful is not worth it in the UK. People hate you for it and want to see you penalised. They think that whatever you do to earn the money it must be easy and a breeze. That you are greedy and need to be made to pay for doing well. Just last week, I heard that the government might be thinking of implementing a charge, payable by high earners, to access the NHS. Everything is about taxing the already heavily taxed even more and few want to face up to the fact that this is unsustainable when you have most of your people relying on the State to live.

People complain about the immigrants but they make up a tiny proportion of 35 million.

I feel disliked for doing well and just can't see a future here and it is making me angry and sad. I believe in having a welfare state, in helping those who are in need but 52.6%? The country is on its knees when most of its people are in need. That is like a developing country not a developed and thriving economy.

Sorry for the long rant. I'm just tired, sad and have just about lost hope of enjoying life in the UK.

I am a higher earner, top 5%. The amount of tax people pay has increased quite a lot since 2010 as the Tories didn't put up the income tax rate bands in proportion to earnings, and while Labour introduced the £100,000+ tax band (reduction of personal allowance) in 2009, the Tories never changed it and could have. The Labour government in the last 12 months have not changed anything in relation to income tax either. If this is a problem for you why not leave in the previous 15 years?

Also where would you go where you'd be paying less unless you can officially reside in Monaco or the Middle East or an equivalent tax haven? Most Europeans pay a lot towards public services and healthcare - you might argue, mind, that in some places they see a better return as they haven't had a government who pissed it up the wall since 2010 and actually invested in public services and infrastructure. In the US the cost of living is extremely high and you'll be paying a fortune for healthcare. Australia and NZ have a very high cost of living too. All have the same issue with demographics and all have their own particular problems plus the ones we share in a global society and economy.

We want to, the teens want to go to university first here, but would encourage them to further study overseas, so we have 7 years until initial Bsc degrees are complete.
One teen wants to live in Germany one wants to live Canada, a concern is if we all become globally apart there might be no way back to having “roots” but if they are overseas then it matters less.

Singapore sounds amazing, but possibly best to visit first.

I understand what you mean, the UK is a small island off Western Europe, no longer part of a large influential trading and political block with few natural resources and a seeming dislike for high tech innovation.

Some of our most respected industries largely creative, many people seem to dislike and now people are saying we should shut down the BBC World Service which is a huge mistake.

Why anyone wants to come here is a mystery!

I get it.
Try out a year in a global office. Living somewhere before committing you would get a feel for the country and relocation permanently process.

I suggest that you watch Gary's Economics on Youtube, he has 1.38M subscribers. Gary Stevenson was a trader who made millions on the trading floor betting on the economy getting worse due to the growing inequality in this country and elsewhere. He explains how a more equitable society can be created by increasing tax on wealth not work.

@Taxed I studied this at uni. The people who take out the most are the middle classes who live a long time, so taking out state pension for years. Working classes tend to die sooner, they don't put much in but don't take much out, comparatively.

It has always been the case that the people who provide a net contribution are very much in the minority - the highest earners. Not 'high earners on 50k, but the small % who earn six figures and above consistently.

There will be many people who work all their lives and pay tax but aren't technically net contributors.

Sorry but this word salad does not negate the facts.

52.5% are net takers. They do not contribute enough to even sustain themselves. A minority are paying for the majority in this country to live.

OP, who exactly is doing the hating? I personally have never seen any hate of high earners. Do you mean the generalised 'tax the rich' ? Can you be more specific?

Wow, the fiscally inept! How on earth do you think this idiot chancellor is going to get her "growth". The majority have to be net contributors.
If we cant sustain ourselves then the country is going to go bust and we'll be Greece.... Remember?
Bailout by the IMF, austerity measures and structural reforms forced upon us the like of which we've never seen. Salaries cut by 20%, the state cut back drastically. And yet Lammy continues to throw our money to all and sundry

The disenfranchisement of the resident population starts with seeing how illegal migrants are treated better than our own people. We would struggle to get a dental appointment but hey, enter the country illegally and you need only ask!

Did I say this was the unemployed rate? This is about people who are net reliant on the State. Some of these will be in employment. This comes from government source (the ONS) and from an independent study. You may choose not to believe it and keep your head in the sand. That is why the country will continue to slip into wide-spread poverty.

It's fine to attack me if that makes you feel better. However, that does not change the reality of things. Pretending this is okay or sustainable is what this country has been doing for years. Now, it has come to a point where the finances of the country is truly broken.

Imagine this, we've come to the point where the government is actively talking about increasing retirement age to 74 years and also the option of discontinuing the state pension altogether. This is what it is coming to. Everyone is being made worse off because 52.6% of our people are not contributing.

@spoonbillstretford yes but no one is going to attack America, it has huge influence creatively, basically runs the internet, has natural resources and a lot more space. Amongst other things. Yes healthcare is expensive but if you are a 1-5% earner, can get sponsored by work and take in account the amount you need for insurance during retirement you can man accordingly.

That's probably the ideal situation. But not one that exists at the moment unfortunately. Particularly given the increasing number of people coming into the country that have never contributed but are reliant on state handouts.

Ultimately this country’s a mess because people who hold views like these and lack the most basic economic and fiscal knowledge get to vote.

If you work in finance, which you probably do, you need to reconsider your privilege. Yes people who work in finance and make a lot
of money pay a lot of tax. But it’s not possible for everyone to do this. A society cannot function. We need people who work on all levels- we need teachers, teaching assistants, refuse collectors, nurses, chiropodists, care workers etc…

which countries do you look at where you
think the system works better? That people pay less tax and services are good and no one relies on the state but has a good standard of living?

The question is what do you suggest. Do you think this is sustainable and okay? Where the country heading with the situation like that. Billions in revenue shortfall to fund the operation of the country. As Rachel Reeves calls it, a black hole. How is that black hole to be filled by an ever decreasing net contributors.

As the economy worsens, more people will be in need of State benefits. That 52% will soon grow into 60%. It is entirely okay to be on such a path to ruin?

Whatever the make up of the figure, the fact is it is unsustainable that the figure is so high. It is not that the figure should be ZERO, it should not be the majority.

I think you are being unnecessarily negative, though I think it is a vision of the UK that is being pushed heavily so while I would expect someone who presumably is well educated and has access to a myriad of experience given your income making it more likely you are educated and aware, I’m a bit surprised that you’ve swallowed it hook line and sinker.

Labour have been in power for a year. The Tories were in power for 14 years before that so everything you are moaning about happened under a Conservative government. The triple lock was introduced by the Conservative/Lib Dem coalition, not Labour.

The Labour government has been a bitter disappointment but you are deluded if you think that the Conservative or Reform (who are far right btw) would make things better.

Do you want to pay low paid workers you rely on more, then they won't need in work benefits?

Train drivers are not state workers 🤣

You have changed reliant on the state to net reliant on the state, very different things.

Someone who pays £1000 a month in various taxes( not that hard) , income, council, tax on petrol, VAT might draw £1001 from the state in benefits, NHS usage and be counted as net reliant.

Where are you considering OP? We’ve looked into Canada, Aus and NZ, but feel tied by elderly relatives.

We all get older. The aging population is the biggest driver of what you are complaining about (I’ve posted information about this on my pp). So you’ll help by moving abroad, as will I if I go- for different reasons to yours- but we’ll still end up a net taker at some point if we are lucky enough to live into older age. We just might end up taking from a different country!

The problem is where is the motivation going to come from?
you used to be able to work hard at school , get a good job, buy a nice house etc and have one holiday a year.
If you go to university now you leave with a pile of debt and can look forward to a very competitive job market, rents that are just ludicrous and very little chance of earning enough for a mortgage in some parts of the UK until you are about 35.
Even if you don’t go to university it is hard to earn a wage that will give you the sort of standard of living your parents had.
So why should anyone work hard? Doesn’t feel like there is much point.

Sorry, what?

I agree with those pointing out that the original statistic is not very helpful because it doesn't capture the very different levels of state resource use / state reliance by different people and the often temporary nature of this position when things like childcare are taken into account. I don't believe that half the adult population cost the state more than they put in when they're lifetimes are taken in the round, although I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that.

Also: yes unemployment is a problem but so is employed poverty: the many many people who work hard and still can't make ends meet without state support. This is more an issue with the structure of our whole economy and in inability to afford the standard of living people have come to expect as as basic form of normal than about individuals being unambitious and lazy. (And whilst I admire and respect hard work and the people who pull themselves up in life, I don't think we should kid ourselves about the fact that comfortable middle-class employment and living situations remain to a large extent hereditary. I can completely see why someone who has a poor quality education, limited home support with learning and with career prospects, and no family safety net for uni or for living expenses or for getting their own home, is likely to get bloody demoralised in this economy).

Where in the world is there a better society and better life? Sure there are many lower-tax economies out there but let's face it: all western-style economies are facing a version of the problem. In the mid to long term it isn't benefit claimants of working age that's going to screw us over so much as the aging population and the pensions timebomb ahead of us. Other styles of economy and social system are of course available. I had a wonderful few years living in a south East Asian country when I was younger and wanted adventure, and it was amazing in many ways (including very low tax but also culturally, historically, geographically...). Yet I was living somewhere where gay friends of mine lived in fear of arrest, as did anyone who did not support the government, and where corruption and misogyny were rife. I suppose you could go somewhere like Dubai which, no matter how anyone tries to sugarcoat it, is effectively a 21st century slave economy. Or South Africa with its yawning racial and economic divides. I've far from exhausted world travel so perhaps there is a low tax, high freedom, high safety haven I'm missing but I'll be damned if I know where it is (again, happy to be corrected / advised...)

The sources I have seen for this do indeed include all public sector workers as “a drain on the public purse”. Hence all of us wanting pay increases in line with inflation being “greedy”.

If my 50 hours a week as a hospital consultant are so unwelcome, I’m more than happy to stop. Far be it from me to be a burden on the state.

To be brutally honest, both NZ and Canada are even less affordable than the U.K. (the house prices are insane). And the jobs market in NZ is terrible right now - and you’re very, very far away from other countries apart from Australia. I know I’m just a random poster on an Internet forum, but I think staying in the U.K. for now is a safer bet than moving to any of those countries.