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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think The West is morally bankrupt

382 replies

Elrae · 27/07/2025 00:19

America democratically elects an adjudicate rapist who sympathises with racists, hates women and will do anything to hang onto power. The UK and it's lickspitrlw leader fawn over Trump and says that Israel has rhe right to cut off food and water to Gaza. Then wairs a year watching children die before saying it is intolerable. Except he is tolerating it.We all are.
The West is pumping out carbon at a vast rate and will no doubt reject the flood of refugees that this will cause.
The West takes more than it's fair share of the world's wealth. Much of the West is based on colonial exploration and murder of the global south.
I used to think we were the good guys.
We are not. We are one of the worst things ever to happen to the planet and it's inhabitants.

OP posts:
SummerEve · 27/07/2025 13:41

TesChique · 27/07/2025 13:39

🤣🤣🤣 this is absurd.

You made a point, i asked you to quantify it, you get incredibly defensive and ask me to quantify it for you because "why should you?"

Debate is dying as a skill.

I’m not defensive, rather I think you are lazy.

WilfredsPies · 27/07/2025 13:41

SummerEve · 27/07/2025 13:14

Please, stop making things up. I haven’t said anywhere that the UK or West is terrible. I have also acknowledged that nowhere is perfect and that other places have their problems too.

Yes, you have said that nowhere is perfect and that other places have their problems but what, exactly, am I making up?

You agreed with DetectiveFlorence when she said ‘as a whole we have become a mean spirited, ignorant nation.. You said ‘The West, the UK and US in particular, continue to trade on past glories and it’s all coming home to roost. I am done with it!’

So I’ll re-word it. Why are you singling out the UK ‘in particular’ for criticism when pretty much every other country in the world has either done exactly the same, or equivalent?

rainingsnoring · 27/07/2025 13:42

SummerEve · 27/07/2025 13:38

Thank you. There is the district tone of schoolyard bullying about on this thread. I see the attention is now turning to you as you have dared to offer a response that is apparently unacceptable!

Sadly, it's not uncommon on here. I've had it directed at me before when I dared to express a view that didn't fit with the schoolyard bullies's opinion. Is it a surprise that we are in such a mess when people can't disagree with each other without becoming nasty and making up things? If some posters love the UK, that's great. If others prefer to seek opportunities elsewhere, good luck to them. As I said, the UK is in a mess.

BluntPlumHam · 27/07/2025 13:45

EasternStandard · 27/07/2025 13:07

Really not at all. If people want to move to a non western country please do. If you also want to then great, I’m not here to dissuade.

I’m wondering why no one says where these better non western places are. Why is that part so hard?

Well I can only explain it to you my friend I cannot comprehend it for you too.

rainingsnoring · 27/07/2025 13:46

EasternStandard · 27/07/2025 13:39

‘Bullying’ to say Aus and NZ etc are western countries?

You’re a bit touchy. I agree there are great countries out there, I’m interested in which non western fit as better. Perhaps people feel China and UAE are better, which is fine. I’m not going to mind if they do think that. I wish them luck on going.

I'm not touchy. I just don't like several posters laying into one person for no reason. Anyway, decent of you to wish people luck.

Just to explain, I was talking about leaving the UK specifically in my earlier post, hence listing some Western countries. I also said earlier that it wasn't an East vs West problem but a problem with human beings. Making it into an East vs West argument is v reductive imo.

Youdontseehow · 27/07/2025 13:46

Elrae · 27/07/2025 00:46

oh how convenient for you..you come on here, choose to insult me, do not challemge intellectually a single point I said, post some video which. I have no intention of clicking on, then you're overcome with fatigue.
Is Trump not am adjudicated rapist?
Did 75 million Americans not hoose to vote him in?
Did Dtarmer not say what I heard and stated he said re: Israel?
Does the West not disproportionately cause carbon emissions?
Do carbon emissions not cause climate change?

start wherever you like

Yeah but what about the “non West”? China, India, Middle East, Russia, South America - the pollution, gang warfare, slavery, rape and child abuse on an industrial scale, FGM, honour killings, stonings, executions for disagreeing with state policy, throwing gays off tall buildings, state sanctioned murder, people executed for fake crimes to harvest their organs, war mongering…..the list goes on.

I’d say the whole world is morally bankrupt and probably about 95% is down to male behaviour and need for dominance.

We are truly fucked on a global scale.

SummerEve · 27/07/2025 13:46

WilfredsPies · 27/07/2025 13:41

Yes, you have said that nowhere is perfect and that other places have their problems but what, exactly, am I making up?

You agreed with DetectiveFlorence when she said ‘as a whole we have become a mean spirited, ignorant nation.. You said ‘The West, the UK and US in particular, continue to trade on past glories and it’s all coming home to roost. I am done with it!’

So I’ll re-word it. Why are you singling out the UK ‘in particular’ for criticism when pretty much every other country in the world has either done exactly the same, or equivalent?

I am not singling out the UK. I also mentioned the US. I didn’t say the UK was terrible either.

BluntPlumHam · 27/07/2025 13:47

TesChique · 27/07/2025 13:39

🤣🤣🤣 this is absurd.

You made a point, i asked you to quantify it, you get incredibly defensive and ask me to quantify it for you because "why should you?"

Debate is dying as a skill.

Debate is a dying skill when you cannot debate the point of this thread and seek to argue a completely unrelated point.

EasternStandard · 27/07/2025 13:47

BluntPlumHam · 27/07/2025 13:41

It’s not about west vs none west. You’ve turned it into that because you have no legitimate argument to refute the original point which is that the West has caused and continues to cause the most damage globally. No one is talking about where is better to live etc you’ve gone down that tangent.

I don’t agree with your take and think this anger you see on mn re the west is a luxury (with absurd bullying accusations etc and your post on no argument). And as pp said even that luxury might not last.

Newbutoldfather · 27/07/2025 13:47

As for youth, we have, at least in the U.K. the biggest split by sex.

Men tend to be right wing and women left wing (as defined by the new definitions). It is a new phenomenon as it was never split by sex in previous generations.

This is a big problem and is another layer of fragmentation within society.

TesChique · 27/07/2025 13:47

SummerEve · 27/07/2025 13:41

I’m not defensive, rather I think you are lazy.

Not at all, i just expect people to be able to back up and defend their own points instead of relying on the lazy "Im not here to educate you" path.

Clearly im expecting too much from you

rainingsnoring · 27/07/2025 13:48

Menopausalsourpuss · 27/07/2025 13:41

Again you're talking about a very small subset of the young. Just like in my day as a working class youth on a YTS scheme I never met anyone who campaigned for South Africa as these types were always well off university students as most of us working class were too busy working hard. They are the same types now obsessed with Palestine when there are lots of other dreadful things going on in the world they ignore.

Do you actually have evidence to back up your comments or is it just based on what your 4 children said? You seem to be pushing the class angle a great deal in your posts for some reason.

WilfredsPies · 27/07/2025 13:50

BluntPlumHam · 27/07/2025 13:38

You’re confusing ‘criticism’ with dislike. It’s not personal it’s just an observation.

I’m not confusing anything.

When the title of the thread includes the words ‘the west is morally bankrupt’ the implication is that you’re (generic you, not you personally) either singling our country out, or you have no understanding of our history and what we did, or what’s going on in the rest of the world that can’t be laid at the door of the west.

My point is that yes, we’re morally bankrupt. As is every other country in the world.

Nowadaysmind · 27/07/2025 13:54

I agree, OP, though the East is also morally corrupt. The world is in a shitty state.

EasternStandard · 27/07/2025 13:55

rainingsnoring · 27/07/2025 13:46

I'm not touchy. I just don't like several posters laying into one person for no reason. Anyway, decent of you to wish people luck.

Just to explain, I was talking about leaving the UK specifically in my earlier post, hence listing some Western countries. I also said earlier that it wasn't an East vs West problem but a problem with human beings. Making it into an East vs West argument is v reductive imo.

Of course I’m happy for people to find a country that suits them. If that’s non western then great. I don’t agree with some of the anti west rhetoric I see, not due to being ‘offended’ as pp put it but because I value the freedoms here.

SummerEve · 27/07/2025 13:57

TesChique · 27/07/2025 13:47

Not at all, i just expect people to be able to back up and defend their own points instead of relying on the lazy "Im not here to educate you" path.

Clearly im expecting too much from you

Yes, you are.

ladyofshertonabbas · 27/07/2025 13:58

WaverleyOwl · 27/07/2025 00:40

It's after midnight where I am, so I am going to bed, but the West is not the problem.

This!

WilfredsPies · 27/07/2025 13:59

SummerEve · 27/07/2025 13:46

I am not singling out the UK. I also mentioned the US. I didn’t say the UK was terrible either.

Do you think that being a ‘mean spirited, ignorant nation’ is a positive thing, then? Because agreeing with someone who said that, as well as trying your hardest to leave, and saying that you’re done with ‘trading on past glories’ implies very much that you think the UK is terrible. What have I made up? Please tell me and I’ll correct it, because it irritates the life out of me when people do that. But I’ve read your posts very carefully and I don’t think I have.

🤦‍♀️ Ok then, you singled out two countries. The UK and the US. But as we don’t live in the US, I thought it was ok to put that to one side for a moment.

WilfredsPies · 27/07/2025 14:12

rainingsnoring · 27/07/2025 13:42

Sadly, it's not uncommon on here. I've had it directed at me before when I dared to express a view that didn't fit with the schoolyard bullies's opinion. Is it a surprise that we are in such a mess when people can't disagree with each other without becoming nasty and making up things? If some posters love the UK, that's great. If others prefer to seek opportunities elsewhere, good luck to them. As I said, the UK is in a mess.

That works both ways. Is it a surprise that we’re in such a mess when people can’t disagree with each other without being accused of being nasty bullies and making stuff up?

Nobody has been nasty to anyone. If you’re going to express an opinion on a thread that is going to be divisive, then you surely have to expect people are going to debate you? That’s not bullying.

HelenaWaiting · 27/07/2025 14:16

Dontlletmedownbruce · 27/07/2025 01:59

I don't know about West specifically but it does make me wonder if democracy has failed as a concept. And capitalism isnt looking too good either. I have no solution! Just saying...

Only a truly dangerous individual tries to sell the view that "democracy has failed as a concept".

DdraigGoch · 27/07/2025 14:17

America democratically elects an adjudicate rapist

Remains to be established just how democratic that election was. All seven swing states voting Trump by just enough not to need a recount? Gerrymandering in Texas? Not a single vote for Harris in Rockford County, New York despite hundreds of Democrat votes down-ballot? All looking very fishy to me.

EmpressoftheMundane · 27/07/2025 14:27

I agree with you OP, but for different reasons.

The West cannot articulate its value; doesn’t educate its children to know their history; doesn’t stand up for objective reality; panders to parts of society that are non-functional; and lacks conviction.

If we keep on like this, we only have ourselves to blame.

nearlylovemyusername · 27/07/2025 14:30

pourmeadrinkpls · 27/07/2025 01:13

Yep. Also the West consumes the most and wastes the most, which is hardly surprising. But everyone is so quick to say oh but what about that country or I had nothing to do with colonisation. Infuriating 🤬

West also generates and creates the most though.

Do you want it to reduce to the level of some countries mentioned here?

Why is that all migrants want to come to West? not opposite direction?

Also if you hate West so much you're always welcome to leave.

Menopausalsourpuss · 27/07/2025 14:54

rainingsnoring · 27/07/2025 13:48

Do you actually have evidence to back up your comments or is it just based on what your 4 children said? You seem to be pushing the class angle a great deal in your posts for some reason.

Haha you don't have any evidence at all! You were citing a few Gaza sitins at elite universities as evidence the youth are "progressive" and I was just pointing out they're a small percentage of the youth so not representative. Those with luxury/left wing beliefs tend to be the wealthy across all ages as alot of their ideas clash with reality and as the country is getting alot poorer I tend to think all ages will become more right wing or at least small c conservative as we just won't have the money to indulge these ideas anymore.

Dappy777 · 27/07/2025 14:58

Pretty much everything you believe in, from reason and science to human rights and individual freedom, was born in Europe. The scientific revolution and the European Enlightenment made the modern world. You talk about colonialism. EVERYONE practiced colonialism. The Babylonians, Mongols, Zulus, Aztecs, Incas, Chinese, Mughals, Arabs, etc, etc all colonised and enslaved their neighbours. Modern China is an empire ffs (just ask the Tibetans or Uyghur Muslims). Young people are taught that Native Americans were peace-loving hippies. In reality, they were horrifically cruel to those they defeated in wars or raids. Rape, mutilation, torture and mass killing were the norm. The human race only began to emerge from savagery in the 18th-century. Until then, slavery and public torture were universal. There never was a golden age. There never was a peace-loving tribe ‘living in harmony with nature’. It’s a myth believed in by masochistic western liberals. I’m not ashamed to be British at all. Any nation that can produce Francis Bacon, John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, Isaac Newton, William Wilberforce, Charles Darwin, Charles Dickens, George Eliot, Bertrand Russell and George Orwell is alright by me. Find me a nation or culture that can produce a list like that! Such people helped create all that’s good in the modern world.

Had Britain never practised colonisation, the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand would not exist in their present form. Instead, you’d be at the mercy of China, Russia and Iran. Would you prefer to live in such a world? Imagine if Europe and North America vanished in a puff of smoke and you now lived in a small village somewhere in the middle of the Eurasian land mass. Would you feel safer and happier than you do now? Why not put down the Guardian, switch off the BBC and try actually thinking for yourself.

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