Is my best friend racist?

[Newnamefortouchysubject]

Visited my best friend today for lunch and had a conversation that has left me confused, so thought I'd bring it to the MN table.
We were talking about immigration, refugees and asylum seekers.
My friend says the issue is not the colour of people's skin, but rather their culture.
She has no problem with people who wish to settle here when they embrace the UK culture.
Her attitude is that multicultural societies are almost impossible to implement to everyones satisfaction because different cultures have such widely opposing beliefs and values and she believes it is unrealistic to expect to integrate many different cultures and values without considerable conflict between the different cultures.
Furthermore, she believes it is so difficult to integrate different cultures that people of the same ethnicity will inevitably gravitate towards each other and form their own social groups to the exclusion of other ethnic groups, so the whole idea of integration is pointless anyway.
We just end up with lots of different groups of people isolating themselves from other groups who don't share their ethnicity.
She is firmly of the belief that tensions that people describe as racially motivated actually stem from cultural differences, that she knows no one who has any issue with people of different races when they adopt the culture of the country they choose to migrate to, and that the tension is created by ethnic differences and their cultural differences.

I still say this is racism because racism also includes discriminating against people based on their ethnicity. She called me naive if I believe a truly multicultural society is possible when 'you wouldn't even tolerate a friend who has the same ethnicity as you but doesn't share your values so how do you expect to embrace someone's complete different way of life'.
I explained that the way other people choose to live their lives doesn't affect me. She called me naive again at this point and said when people don't have the same values, when they live according to different social rules, it affects people living in their vicinity who don't live like that.

Im not sure whether to raise the subject with her again, or let it lie because she seemed quite adamant and I'm not sure I could make her see this is still racist.

Now I'm wondering if I don't understand what racism is. Maybe I am naive.

I mean, think about it from the other direction, OP.

Do you think that it is possible to take people from differernt cultures, with widely disparate values and beliefs, and make them work together?

So, for example, a culture that believes in private property, vs one that does not, one that believes in racial equality along with one that believes in the superiority of certain groups, one that believes that everyone needs to adhere to the same religion mixed with other religions, etc? Think of a something like the ancient Romans, who believed it was acceptable for the head of the family, the father, to decide to kill his children. Would that culture work in a place like the UK?

I think it's quite difficult to say that cultures like these could form a coherent society, they are very likely to fracture.

As far as racism itself - the thing to understand is that it's never really about race. Race becomes a kind of signal of something else, an out-group, who differ in some way or which another group wants to exploit. Because those people are differernt, or weak, their race becomes associated with what are seen as negative qualities, or becomes an excuse for oppression. Where skin colour is the same, other things can equally substitute to differentiate.

I think your friend is right, there are limits to what will work in a multi-cultural society, and the more strained those are, the more tensions there will be.

#bestchooseanother... Excellent post. Didn't quote you as a long post.

Don’t be daft, OP. Lack of integration doesn’t mean people who look different to you huddled together on street corners.

Where I live you only have to look at the primary schools to see how segregated the country is. Some have a Muslim majority, some a black majority, some a white working class majority, and some and white middle class majority. People, understandably, want to be with people who look and think like they do. Sadly, this does nothing for cohesion.

Are we going down ‘we’re all immigrants’ or there’s ‘no such thing as U.K. culture as it’s a melting pot of cultures’ route? It’s already been done several times in the thread, please try something new. It doesn’t add up,

The issue is not culture it is misogyny. Some men will use what ever weapons they can - culture, religion, sexism, violence etc to control and subjugate women and girls. The right of women and girls to equality and autonomy should override all religious, sexist and cultural beliefs.

Your friend is a racist if she she thinks this is an issue only for those with cultural practices different to her own. Anyone who thinks this is non white problem is a racist.

Until misogyny AND privilege is tackled, the jury is out on multiculturalism.

I think it’s pretty obvious she’s not rascist , and you have too much a simplistic view on things

So many lazy stereotypes

What I see where I live is that groups of schoolchildren in officially 'diverse' schools stay within their own groups. So at kicking out time, you'll see a huddle of South Asian kids. Then, a group of white kids. Then some East Asian kids. Maybe occasional mixing (so an all-white group with one black child for example), but it's not actually that common. And it's significantly more usual that the white groups have non-white members than non-white groups have white members. I've been noticing the trend for a while, and I've so far never noticed the latter. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that of the few groups I pass in town, it seems to be all non-white vs all-white/white plus non-white. To the point it's noticeable. I imagine (hope) others have experienced something else.

Attempt to silence discussion, like I said it’s just not going to work anymore.

Now you’re getting it, putting forward respectful arguments rather than attempting to shut down other opinions is part of British culture. Very persuasive arguments. I’m sold, multiculturalism is a huge success.

This is not Islam this is Iraq culture.

Not British then? Not that it matters one iota to me. Culture may be specific within the UK such as Welsh, Irish and Scottish language speaking areas. Normans integrated because they were wealthy. They dictated the language but also adopted Anglo Saxon ways.

We still celebrate our Celtic, Roman, Viking, Anglo Saxon and Norman heritage. All with their unique traditions. It's why we are a United Kingdom.

Yeah but on that thread others from the Middle East clearly stated that separate genders don’t share a bed so that what the uncle was doing was still wrong.

So the ‘melting pot of culture’ route. Wow, what an amazing and surprising argument.

Jim'll fix it was last century. Where have you been since then?

How is it racist? What group is she being racist towards? She said different cultures can't mix, she hasn't isolated and discriminated against one race.
I don't agree with her but she isn't racist, she's put across her views which don't taget one race. People like you are what contributes to the tensions. People are shut up by being called racist so the actual racists use the argument that they can't say anything without being called racist.

Love how ‘respectful discussion’ suddenly means tone-policing while trying to mock the very point you asked for. Multiculturalism is a success, sorry if that reality clashes with your nostalgia for a version of Britain that only existed in your imagination.

Which might partially explain why the NHS and education are in a mess. My mother was in hospital earlier this year, her allocated nurse barely spoke English. Totally inappropriate.

Well certainly it was enriched with travel and industrial expansion in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Music, food, architecture, science, workers and innovation. Let's not forget that influence and contribution. It's what makes Britain Great.

I only informed you that using ism and phobias to shut down discussion is very 2019 and not effective anymore. You took my point onboard, I’m taking that as a win. You’re starting to loose me a bit on the other stuff.

I regard multiculturalism as an utter failure and one I hope that will be put right. I understand why you think it’s a success, read the comments with an open mind and you might start to understand the other side.

I find your response extremely offensive. I have explained in great detail why I have reached the opinion I have reached, and you accuse me of lying. The reason I went into detail is that I have entirely changed my outlook, and I am very conscious of that. If I evoke stereotypes, why do you think that may be? Possibly I'm not the only person who has encountered what I've encountered. Though I imagine there are many who have seen what I've seen and have not had the inclination/courage to reconsider their position.

I don't know whether you are someone who knows I am telling the truth and needs to pretend I'm lying, or whether you are someone who suspects I am telling the truth and very much wants me to be lying. But I don't believe that anyone who is certain I am lying would bother to respond without rebuttal, as they would think what I've experienced is entirely justifiable. And yet, you are not trying to defend what I have described as somehow acceptable behaviour. Just pretending I must surely, definitely be making it all up, with no explanation as to why you've reached that conclusion.

So why are you protecting what you know to be wrong?

(Very, very happy to provide proof, btw.)

'your friend' and @bestchooseanother nail the position of the UK ATM perfectly. I have friends that grew up in so called multicultural areas that have left to escape the abuse and racism targeted at them. I have relatives that now are so outnumbered by other cultures they cannot be outside at certain times of the day. I'm sorry to say that the groups that this does concur towards are many of the people coming into this country from areas where fundamental islam is major religion. It's not about being phobic of a religion or even not agreeing with it. It's about how these archaic versions of theses values that these people have have been brought up with. As others have said we have for many years been harmonious with various cultures and religions, but in the last 20 plus years (and recently moreso) been inundated with people whose culture/religion/way of life is really not compatible with the country that they have chosen to make their home in.My opinion is in no way directed at people of any religion or culture that have come here legally and are happy to integrate whilst keeping their own identity. If that makes me racist ( you can't be racist against a religion) islamaphobic ( I'm not afraid of a religion) or whatever the new supposed insult is? I'm really not bothered! These words have no value anymore.

How has it been a success? If it's such a success why is there so much discontent with immigration at the moment from all sections of society? There's only so much multiculterism that can be absorbed before the whole fabric of our society starts to implode. I don't hear anyone saying its been a success - either the immigrants who have settled here are unhappy as they think the UK is institutionally racist, or the opposite side feel there's no attempt at integration by immigrants. So no-one is happy it seems....

Your post is offensive. You have explained something in great detail, just not what you think you did.

You've never travelled have you . .

Are you suggesting that culture doesn't exist? Trying to understand.