Is my best friend racist?

[Newnamefortouchysubject]

Visited my best friend today for lunch and had a conversation that has left me confused, so thought I'd bring it to the MN table.
We were talking about immigration, refugees and asylum seekers.
My friend says the issue is not the colour of people's skin, but rather their culture.
She has no problem with people who wish to settle here when they embrace the UK culture.
Her attitude is that multicultural societies are almost impossible to implement to everyones satisfaction because different cultures have such widely opposing beliefs and values and she believes it is unrealistic to expect to integrate many different cultures and values without considerable conflict between the different cultures.
Furthermore, she believes it is so difficult to integrate different cultures that people of the same ethnicity will inevitably gravitate towards each other and form their own social groups to the exclusion of other ethnic groups, so the whole idea of integration is pointless anyway.
We just end up with lots of different groups of people isolating themselves from other groups who don't share their ethnicity.
She is firmly of the belief that tensions that people describe as racially motivated actually stem from cultural differences, that she knows no one who has any issue with people of different races when they adopt the culture of the country they choose to migrate to, and that the tension is created by ethnic differences and their cultural differences.

I still say this is racism because racism also includes discriminating against people based on their ethnicity. She called me naive if I believe a truly multicultural society is possible when 'you wouldn't even tolerate a friend who has the same ethnicity as you but doesn't share your values so how do you expect to embrace someone's complete different way of life'.
I explained that the way other people choose to live their lives doesn't affect me. She called me naive again at this point and said when people don't have the same values, when they live according to different social rules, it affects people living in their vicinity who don't live like that.

Im not sure whether to raise the subject with her again, or let it lie because she seemed quite adamant and I'm not sure I could make her see this is still racist.

Now I'm wondering if I don't understand what racism is. Maybe I am naive.

"I explained that the way other people choose to live their lives doesn't affect me."

Every year 12 MILLION girls are married as child brides.

I firmly believe some values are better than others. I have no regard for anyone who thinks child brides are in anyway legitimate.

@Absentmindedsmile

The examples you have given would be swiftly dealt with here under the UK law though, so wouldn't happen here.
Some cultural differences would be illegal here and for good reason, but many won't be and their culture is a part of their identity, as our culture is a part of ours.

How typical.

It's always the people who have absolutely 0 experience of living in the places where all the illegal migrants are put that want to defend them.

Maybe go and see it for yourself OP. There is no integration. Not even an attempt.

She doesn’t sound racist to me. Educated yes, racist no.

I agree with your friend. Let me ask you how many friends she has that come from different ethnic backgrounds? White English people being the largest majority in this country do tend to have friends of the same background together, they also do this when they are ex-pats abroad in Spain and France too. Perhaps she should look at herself first.
I have many friends from all different backgrounds and cultures and being Indian and born here, I think I integrate really well. I can relate to most popular culture references, know more about this country’s history and literature than many of my white colleagues and friends. Growing up I didn’t have any friends from ethnic backgrounds because there were hardly any that went to my school, but I had lots of friends I still see 30 years later. Would that mean I would congregate with others of my own backgrounds
and exclude others if there had been more of us? Would it hell, it would depend on personality and interest.

Totally agree with your friend and she's stating facts, not being racist.
Growing up as a white woman in an ethnically diverse city was pretty horrendous. As a white person, I had to put up with whatever racist comments people wanted to make and couldn't say anything back. If you made any complaints about their behaviour, they would always state you were racist, rather than accepting they'd done something wrong.
If people want to come here and settle, they have to do it legally, learn English and accept our laws and culture. If they're not interested, they can go elsewhere. If they break the law, then they're deported.
Other countries insist on this and it's accepted and respected.

I don't live under a stone! I do travel to towns and cities in the UK. I see all kinds of people on my travels.

Your friend is right.

Where on the uk apart from a beach or a swimming pool is this acceptable?

I have been to a large number of places and unfortunately seen English people wearing pretty much nothing in places where it's not social acceptable but still do it.

I live on an incredibly diverse road and no one could give a fuck what anyone wears. I am often gardening in my stupidly short shorts and vest top chatting away to my Muslim neighbour in her hijab and our Sikh neighbour in his Turban. No one bats an eye.

Right, so what have you seen to prove your friend wrong?

I think it's true that people gravitate towards those most similar to themselves. But also if you have no interaction with people of other races then you're probably more likely to be racist than those who know a mix. because people of all cultures are nice, and if you are close to other people you fear them less as everything is understood better.

I agree with your friend.

Hmm tell that to the girls who are murdered by parents for disobeying them/having boyfriends or who get sent abroad to be married. How is the law dealing with that? It's already happened by the time the police get involved.

Counties aren’t blank canvases ready to be settled by whoever turns up. They have native populations with established cultural norms. Those people naturally want self-determination. That’s why western societies decided colonial rule had had its day and they needed to leave and let people run their own countries. Rapid immigration can cause the same issues f culture clash and disenfranchisement of the native population. It’s not racist to observe that.

I see people from all walks of life going about their daily business. I don't see groups of people huddled together excluding others, I don't see people avoiding other people based on their perceived ethnicity.
I have never given other people's ethnicity a thought until lunch today.
Everyone is a little different, no matter who they are or what their culture is. It's what makes the tapestry of life so rich!

Your friend is right. The highest trust communities are those that are most homogenous… as Sweden found out after their open border experiment. It didn’t work and it wasn’t from lack of effort on the Swedes part. Crime shot up (rapes and bombs), no go areas etc. They are now paying the unproductive immigrants to leave, up to €30,000 to pack their bags.

This is racist about Iranians of whom I know many and who do not have this view / belief..would you quote Andrew Tate about the UK?

I'm Muslim and my parents are immigrants. I agree with your friend.

Ideally we like to think not but in reality people have segregated and continue those cultural behaviours in this country.

Also, she seems like she knows what she's talking about because it is the culture not religion we are talking about.

Also, it has not been easy to integrate.
My parents struggled to buy a house in a 'white' area and the estate agent told them it would be difficult beforehand.

My Dad bought the England football kit for my brother in the 80's and he was constantly told to go back where he came from and why was he wearing it.

So point being, those that did try to integrate, didn't have it easy and many just gave up. Hence isolated communities clinging on to where they feel safe and accepted.

There's more to this complex topic but overall I agree with your friend.

I agree with her. My DH's family are immigrants.

I agree with your friend. When people import their own cultures into the UK it is very difficult to manage. A large part of that is because there are people within that community who do not have the same rights as those of the general population. The people forced into marrying their illterate cousins in Pakistan and watching their children suffer from horrific genetic defects, FGM, refusal to allow women to leave the home without a male chaperone, refusal to allow women to learn English or to get jobs, having their votes stolen are the women from that community. Not White people. When people say objecting to to these beliefs are 'racist' they are pandering to the male elders in these communities. Not the entirety of that community.

Like, for example, many of the white “Christian” groups?

Would you mind giving a general area? I live in outer London and this is just NOT how it is and I live in a very diverse area.

Men from Iran have a totally lovely view of women. 👀🙄

Afghanistani men also a lovely respect for women.

These are both racist statements.

Yes there are some governments around the world that do bad things, but we need to separate that from their citizens and diaspora otherwise we are both inaccurate and prejudice. We are constantly reminded that it is anti-Semitic to hold Israeli citizens responsible for the actions of their government so why doesn’t the same apply to Iranian and Afghani people?

Many people do integrate successfully and seek to do so. Others absolutely do not - I work in an area where we have to be alert for children travelling over the summer holidays to countries where it is entirely possible they will be subjected to being married or have fgm. In some areas, people speak no English, despite being here for more than a generation, because they don't need to as their first language is the one of their community, shops, leisure. It is not racist to note these things, they are facts.

Your friend isn't racist, and you are naive.

It's not racist to point out that people are more likely to seek out friends with similar cultural backgrounds, nor point out that certain people and their beliefs and behaviours may be detrimental to wider society. Common ground is important to cultures, it's like denying that Christmas is a cultural celebration more than it is religious nowadays in the UK.

It's racist to make assumptions about everyone from X culture and place, but it's not racist to have an informed discussion.