Is my best friend racist?

[Newnamefortouchysubject]

Visited my best friend today for lunch and had a conversation that has left me confused, so thought I'd bring it to the MN table.
We were talking about immigration, refugees and asylum seekers.
My friend says the issue is not the colour of people's skin, but rather their culture.
She has no problem with people who wish to settle here when they embrace the UK culture.
Her attitude is that multicultural societies are almost impossible to implement to everyones satisfaction because different cultures have such widely opposing beliefs and values and she believes it is unrealistic to expect to integrate many different cultures and values without considerable conflict between the different cultures.
Furthermore, she believes it is so difficult to integrate different cultures that people of the same ethnicity will inevitably gravitate towards each other and form their own social groups to the exclusion of other ethnic groups, so the whole idea of integration is pointless anyway.
We just end up with lots of different groups of people isolating themselves from other groups who don't share their ethnicity.
She is firmly of the belief that tensions that people describe as racially motivated actually stem from cultural differences, that she knows no one who has any issue with people of different races when they adopt the culture of the country they choose to migrate to, and that the tension is created by ethnic differences and their cultural differences.

I still say this is racism because racism also includes discriminating against people based on their ethnicity. She called me naive if I believe a truly multicultural society is possible when 'you wouldn't even tolerate a friend who has the same ethnicity as you but doesn't share your values so how do you expect to embrace someone's complete different way of life'.
I explained that the way other people choose to live their lives doesn't affect me. She called me naive again at this point and said when people don't have the same values, when they live according to different social rules, it affects people living in their vicinity who don't live like that.

Im not sure whether to raise the subject with her again, or let it lie because she seemed quite adamant and I'm not sure I could make her see this is still racist.

Now I'm wondering if I don't understand what racism is. Maybe I am naive.

Another thread where the islamaphobes appear!

Your friend makes a lot of good points.

It’s virtually impossible to have any kind of sensible debate on this topic because of people accusing others of racism where there doesn’t appear to be any. A bit like you have.

I basically agree with her but I think there are degrees.

Of course I have no problem worshipping however they want, eating what they want, marrying who they want and following their own traditions.

But if you publicly, vocally or through public insinuations try to impose your views of things like women’s rights, mixed education, female emancipation, democracy/ constitution on others, refuse to learn the language so the taxpayer has to pay for translators, and refuse to integrate at all then I don’t think it’s racism to say that’s not ok.

Precisely. We could all list various things that we think about when we imagine British Culture but it is more than that.

Anyone who has spent extended periods of time travelling will probably have felt homesick at some point. That’s because you’re missing your culture. I went travelling for 6 months when I was younger and by the time I got to Thailand, I was starting to feel a little homesick and beyond excited when I discovered a British pub that served pie and mash. Reconnecting with my home culture was invigorating and allowed me to continue on after ‘touching base’ back with the familiar.

Letting your cat roam all over the neighborhood

Taking trains to other parts of the country (as opposed to the US, where we mostly drive or fly)

Thinking you’re fortunate to have to wait “only” eight months for an autism assessment

Being opposed to trick-or-treating, for reasons that have nothing to do with religious fundamentalism

Going to schools that have prefects, head girls, and head boys

Sending your young children to reception, not kindergarten

Drying your clothes on top of the radiator

Not going into debt after unexpected surgery

Thinking the social class of someone’s ancestors is relevant

Knowing the rules of cricket and rugby

Seeing a pensioner eating a packet of crisps on the Underground, as opposed to seeing a retired person eating a bag of chips on the subway

Using “Asians” refer to South Asians, not East Asians

Having heard of a man named Ashley somewhere other than Gone With the Wind

Aw! You’re inventive as well!

What does ‘Islamophobe’ mean?

💘

This is a really really strange response. Yes actually, my children’s school doesn’t do the nativity at Christmas but they celebrate tonnes of other religious and cultural festivals. And yes, people regularly tiptoe around saying merry Christmas now and say happy holiday season instead lest they offend someone who isn’t Christian. I don’t think people worry about this in other countries. If you live somewhere else and you have a work holiday for a religious festival, people EXPECT you to say happy whatever celebration. So yes, actually, my Christmas and language have been cancelled. and yet if I moved somewhere else, I’d be expected to assimilate and learn all the cultural greetings and terminology including what you say at holidays and celebrations.

And you know, I’ve never known anyone Muslim who eats hamsters…but thanks for the heads up. I’ll have to watch out for that if I ever choose a hamster as a pet….

How is wanting people to learn the language and accept the laws of the country they are living in and to participate in things like state education Islamaphobic? I am not happy with this behaviour in any group. I think we can expand to include cultural holidays, food, and some customs. But how is it wrong to say, this is how this country does things (for example, education) and if you come to live here, this is what you have to accept?

Same in DS’ school. No nativity, only secular ‘carols’ performed. They do however celebrate other religious festivals. It’s a predominantly white British school as well. Go figure.

You are dreadfully naive.

I agree with the friend too. We are importing a whole world of trouble with different views about fundamentals like women's rights and safety. I don't see much assimilation and feel Britain will get increasingly tribal as the years go on and there will be a lot of violent conflict one day as religion and cultures clash and some seek ascendancy.

Hope this is helpful -

An Islamophobe is a person who harbors irrational fear, hatred, or prejudice against Islam or Muslims. This term comes from “Islamophobia,” which refers to hostility, discrimination, or biased attitudes toward people who follow the Islamic faith.

Islamophobia can show up in various ways, including:

• Stereotyping Muslims as terrorists or extremists
• Discriminatory policies targeting Muslim communities
• Hate speech or violence against Muslims or Islamic institutions (like mosques)
• Assuming someone is dangerous or untrustworthy simply because they are Muslim or wear religious clothing (like hijabs or kufis)

Important note:

• Criticism of a religion’s ideas or practices is not necessarily Islamophobia — it becomes problematic when it targets individuals or groups based on prejudice or fuels hostility toward Muslims as people.

Where did I state that I disagree? I’m basing my post on the replies from some members here automatically jumping on the Muslim hate wagon, when nothing is to say that this was regarding Muslims in the first place. There are many more religions within the UK now, yet fingers get pointed to Muslims time and time again.

Your friend is right and you're a boring bigot trotting out "racist" to anyone who doesn't have your views.

People like this tend to have strict conservative views on how women should live (Ie anti single mums) anyway

I don’t think it’s racism and I believe your friend is right. I moved to this country from the US although ethnically from South Asia and not Muslim. I moved here because Britain offered British / Western values as well as an opportunity to improve my earnings power. It was not to cling to people from my own ethnicity but to benefit from what Britain and british culture had to offer and to contribute to it in return for being given the opportunity to live here.

Over time, I have become very disillusioned with what has been happening in the UK. Multi-culturalism has been pushed as a religion and anyone speaking against it (much like the transgender movement) has been called a racist, right-wing and generally dismissed. Multi-culturalism clearly has its limits and there can never be full integration of cultures as that’s practically impossible. However when a government (Europe included) refuse to see the negative changes taking place in British society as a result of migrants (illegal mainly) who come to the UK with very different goals - not to integrate, and not because of British culture and values - but to just make money and further bring cultural practices that are completely at odds with Western values - it’s foolish and very dangerous to stick one’s head in the hand and keep ‘canceling’ anyone who thinks otherwise as a racist.

To me it’s exactly as naive, dangerous and foolhardy as propagating the ideology key to the transgender movement (flying in the face of reality) “assigned male/female at birth”. Not speaking up against this which was clearly complete nonsense and at odds with reality, had disastrous consequences for women’s rights everywhere. In the same way, calling anyone who objects to migration to the UK in its current form a racist could have equally dangerous consequences to the general population of this country.

These beliefs aren’t held by all of any group though. They aren’t based on religion. I have friends who come from the background you are thinking of and none of them think like that.

She is correct

It is, most will accept other countries do have a culture and then we do too. We’re not the only ones without it.

Your friend is right that integration is key. Learning the language, abiding by the law, respecting the traditions of others.

Immigrants will become fluent faster and understand our cultural norms quicker if native English speakers take the initiative to speak with them on a regular basis.

How can they understand the nuance of our values and social norms if they don’t have any British friends?

People moan about immigrants sticking together, but that is a perfectly rational response when the native population is unfriendly and your English isn’t good enough yet.

So I would say your friend is not being racist, but she is making sweeping generalisations about the culture and values of immigrants that don’t sound rooted in lived experience.

But living in an area and just visiting it are completely different things!

You are commenting on something where you have no experience

i'm actually really taken aback by that.

Going straight to the isms and phobias to shut down dialogue is so 2019.

What religions do you think should have the finger pointed at them?