Is my best friend racist?

[Newnamefortouchysubject]

Visited my best friend today for lunch and had a conversation that has left me confused, so thought I'd bring it to the MN table.
We were talking about immigration, refugees and asylum seekers.
My friend says the issue is not the colour of people's skin, but rather their culture.
She has no problem with people who wish to settle here when they embrace the UK culture.
Her attitude is that multicultural societies are almost impossible to implement to everyones satisfaction because different cultures have such widely opposing beliefs and values and she believes it is unrealistic to expect to integrate many different cultures and values without considerable conflict between the different cultures.
Furthermore, she believes it is so difficult to integrate different cultures that people of the same ethnicity will inevitably gravitate towards each other and form their own social groups to the exclusion of other ethnic groups, so the whole idea of integration is pointless anyway.
We just end up with lots of different groups of people isolating themselves from other groups who don't share their ethnicity.
She is firmly of the belief that tensions that people describe as racially motivated actually stem from cultural differences, that she knows no one who has any issue with people of different races when they adopt the culture of the country they choose to migrate to, and that the tension is created by ethnic differences and their cultural differences.

I still say this is racism because racism also includes discriminating against people based on their ethnicity. She called me naive if I believe a truly multicultural society is possible when 'you wouldn't even tolerate a friend who has the same ethnicity as you but doesn't share your values so how do you expect to embrace someone's complete different way of life'.
I explained that the way other people choose to live their lives doesn't affect me. She called me naive again at this point and said when people don't have the same values, when they live according to different social rules, it affects people living in their vicinity who don't live like that.

Im not sure whether to raise the subject with her again, or let it lie because she seemed quite adamant and I'm not sure I could make her see this is still racist.

Now I'm wondering if I don't understand what racism is. Maybe I am naive.

I agree with your friend too.

In my opinion the irony here is that British culture is how a lot of the other countries 'should' be according to their religion.

Respect, women's rights, etc all these things are of paramount importance in Islam for example. I can only comment on that, as that is my faith. But my culture is British. And the 2 can combine.

It is the culture of these other countries that is misaligned. They are not even practicing what they should be in their home countries.

By shutting down healthy and open debate there will be no progress.

Again from my own limited experience, it is typically men who use culture as an excuse to control women and has nothing to do with religion. Iran, Afghanistan being the obvious ones but there are so many more. Their control of women is culture not religion and let's not shy from saying it and raising awareness.

I'm actually pleased we can start to discuss the 2 topics, religion and culture, as 2 separate matters and appreciate the confusion that arises from the overlap.

I'm surprised your friendship survived Brexit, to be honest, as many didn't and there is still a lot of animosity and division about that.

YABU by the way. She is expressing views that are at odds with multiculturalism. That's not the same as being racist or xenophobic.

The dominant culture, especially from the BBC but embedded throughout the public sector, is that multiculturalism was/is the 'norm', and 'right'.

So, we've had a generation or two of the liberal/middle-class establishment not feeling a need to defend multiculturalism, and now they're flummoxed.

Debates about multiculturalism are becoming sharper these days because globalisation itself is also under fire across the world, not just the UK.

Put another way, your friend is expressing a political and cultural view that's different to yours. Does that make you racist or xenophobic? No, of course not.

Please try to see the bigger picture. You and your friend are just part of a huge global conversation that's taking place right now, so keep on talking about it.

Not keen on people discussing immigration eh? Interesting.

I’ve lived in two Muslim countries and though individuals are polite and pleasant the underlying medieval culture of many people clashes with western values

Basically agree with her. I’m in Ireland and like seeing people from different backgrounds. But I don’t really like seeing people wearing certain religious costumes which is basically advertising the fact that their values are at odds with those held by the vast majority. Ireland is finally breaking free from centuries of Catholicism and becoming a non-religious dominated society where the vast majority have similar fairly inclusive core values. I think if you don’t subscribe to those core values (equality of men/women, gay rights etc) why would you wish to live in a country where those are valued.

There is so much to unpack. But I just want to point out one thing

"I explained that the way other people choose to live their lives doesn't affect me"

But it does. If my neighbours regardless of colour hang out with their drug buddies it affects how much I enjoy my neighbourhood. If every day I hear my neighbour beating the shi* out of their partner, it affects me

If my neighbours are racists it surely affects me because am a black woman and it would have affected me if I was white because of the views I hold.

If my neighbours are kind (which my neighbours are, bless them) it makes me happier more comfy and makes me want to be kinder too.

If my non neighbours (the majority) in the country I live in vote a particular way it affects the direction the country goes so it affects me, and their vote is part of how they live, their beliefs etc. God know votes far away in America have affected me.

So societies become what they are because how your neighbours live does affect you.

subscribe to those core values (equality of men/women, gay rights etc) why would you wish to live in a country where those are valued

because your own country and others with your culture are seriously corrupt and/or non democratic

That said, I think there are arguably are cities/ countries/communities where multiculturalism is viable and works perfectly well - take Singapore as an example. But it probably only works and is desirable in a minority of cases.

Apparently it's endlessly fascinating. We need thread after thread every single day to discuss immigration. It's not interesting.

This explain your naivety. Your friend is right, and this isn't racist. It's ridiculous how people who just talk common sense these days have the risk of being labeled racist. She is also absolutely right, you won't tolerate her difference of opinion, but you would tolerate different cultures, many of which treat women shockingly.

Not sure why you felt the need to name change for this thread @Newnamefortouchysubject

Why couldn’t you have just posted it under your normal name?

That’s the first thing I noticed about the question you pose

The thing is that you will downplay any examples of British culture that are given to you so it's pointless.

If you answered my question you might say something like pasta, catholicism, fast cars, history. Is that how an Italian would describe themselves?

People outside the UK seem be able to identify what they see as British culture. Why can't you accept there is such a thing?

anyone who has travelled anywhere knows that every country has it's own culture. You can't always put your finger on it exactly, but we all know that British culture is different to French culture, which is different to German culture, which is different to Spanish culture, which is different to Egyptian culture, which is different to Nigerian culture, which is different to Australian culture, which is different to Japanese culture.... and on and on...

It’s interesting that you like to dismiss people wanting to discuss immigration.

It’s interesting that you find other peoples’ wish to discuss immigration and their concerns about immigration, ‘not interesting’.

This demonstrates your lack of awareness spectacularly well.

There was a really interesting set of 3 documentaries recently where the guy went through scandinavia. When he was in Denmark, he was talking about the attitude to immigrants there and it kind of shocked me, but really made me think. If you want to immigrate you must speak the language, your kids must go to state run childcare from age 2. The focus is on integration. I have to say, it seemed sensible. I am not sure about their rule that they will forcibly move people if they think a ghetto is forming and more than 25% of an area come from a particular ethnic group and felt very sorry for the man whose family had been forced to move. But again, I could kind of see the point.

I don't believe @ExtraOnions is suggesting that British culture doesn't exist - she is asking for a definition.

It is hard to give one though, as neither Britain nor the UK is a country. It's a political state comprising four very different countries, each with its own identity, history, laws, education systems and, of course, culture.

Naturally there is a lot of overlap, but a lot of that overlap exists with other western countries too, and not unique to the members of the UK. I'd say that the things listed by @Bubblegumicecreamm are mostly English culture, with much of it pretty alien to me (a Scot). I also feel this watching the news, It's like watching the news on holiday abroad - interesting but doesn't really relate to my life or experiences.

I don't know much about Welsh or Northern Irish culture but I have never assumed they're the same as anywhere else on these islands. Maybe though the areas of overlap are enough for some to feel a commonality between us all, even though we mostly share them with Europe and North America too.

Perhaps the problems arise when immigration brings us cultures where there is little to no overlap, and shared values can't be found. I can see how this might breed resentment on both sides, although with Scotland experiencing far lower levels of immigration than England I have no direct experience to speak of.

I agree with your friend. Cultural integration and assimilation is incredibly difficult especially when there are major differences with the roles and expectations of men/women/ domestic life etc . It's probably easier for cultural integration within the western world but saying that my brother moved to the USA and still relies heavily on other British ex pat groups for his predominant social circle. I see above you identified that police etc would take 'swift action' at perhaps some cultural practices that are not aligned with our law; however, this is still very much a difficult area. Many cultural practices that do not align with our law are kept hidden by communities and so it perhaps isn't as easier to prosecute as you may believe. www.theguardian.com/society/2024/sep/19/nhs-reports-increase-in-female-genital-mutilation-cases

Plus a police person risks being sacked if they’re accused of racism - very difficult to do your job in those circumstances imv

What are these vastly different beliefs and values that she refers to?

Countries that practice FGM. The treatment of gay people and woman in many societies. Child marriage.
Mass child and baby rape in southern Africa due to a superstition anout curing AIDS. Treatment of animals.
Afghanistan under the Taliban. That's just briefly off the top of my head.

Pakistani-origin men are up to four times more likely to be reported to the police for child sex grooming offences than the general population in England and Wales, the first national police scheme data appeared to suggest last week.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-pakistans-rape-culture-led-to-the-uk-grooming-gangs/

I agree with her

Anyone would think you were trying to goad me into an argument and you're far too intelligent, well read and clued up to stoop so low. Don't derail the thread, everyone is agreeing with other and getting on so well. It would be a shame to spoil the party.

Everyone isn’t agreeing with each other.

The vast majority are agreeing with each other. You seem very keen to spoil the vibe.