Is my best friend racist?

[Newnamefortouchysubject]

Visited my best friend today for lunch and had a conversation that has left me confused, so thought I'd bring it to the MN table.
We were talking about immigration, refugees and asylum seekers.
My friend says the issue is not the colour of people's skin, but rather their culture.
She has no problem with people who wish to settle here when they embrace the UK culture.
Her attitude is that multicultural societies are almost impossible to implement to everyones satisfaction because different cultures have such widely opposing beliefs and values and she believes it is unrealistic to expect to integrate many different cultures and values without considerable conflict between the different cultures.
Furthermore, she believes it is so difficult to integrate different cultures that people of the same ethnicity will inevitably gravitate towards each other and form their own social groups to the exclusion of other ethnic groups, so the whole idea of integration is pointless anyway.
We just end up with lots of different groups of people isolating themselves from other groups who don't share their ethnicity.
She is firmly of the belief that tensions that people describe as racially motivated actually stem from cultural differences, that she knows no one who has any issue with people of different races when they adopt the culture of the country they choose to migrate to, and that the tension is created by ethnic differences and their cultural differences.

I still say this is racism because racism also includes discriminating against people based on their ethnicity. She called me naive if I believe a truly multicultural society is possible when 'you wouldn't even tolerate a friend who has the same ethnicity as you but doesn't share your values so how do you expect to embrace someone's complete different way of life'.
I explained that the way other people choose to live their lives doesn't affect me. She called me naive again at this point and said when people don't have the same values, when they live according to different social rules, it affects people living in their vicinity who don't live like that.

Im not sure whether to raise the subject with her again, or let it lie because she seemed quite adamant and I'm not sure I could make her see this is still racist.

Now I'm wondering if I don't understand what racism is. Maybe I am naive.

Now calling out bigotry is ‘lazy’ — while painting Muslims as a problem is somehow deep, honest discourse? I’ve joined the discussion honestly from the start. What you’re calling ‘despair’ often sounds more like discomfort with a diverse society. If your depth of feeling comes at the expense of mine, maybe it’s time to question whose voice is actually being heard - and whose is constantly being told to be more polite about their existence

I have not once suggested or implied that I am an immigrant. So why did you decide that I am an immigrant and that I wasn’t born in the UK?

I don’t agree but can’t really be bothered to look though all your posts.I’ll take your word for it and I’ll rephrase:
Can you bring yourself to say anything positive about native British culture?

Fucking hell 😳

No - we didn’t. We didn’t want to integrate with the values of that culture. Also as a woman I couldn’t anyway. The streets were full of young Pakistani men hanging out together. No women were out at all. They didn’t socialise, go out into the town centre to the clubs, pubs and places which made up the town back then. I’m not quite sure how you would have expected me to ‘integrate’ as you put it when you weren’t welcome into their homes, or society. By this I mean the particular kind of rural Pakistani religious and cultural beliefs. A Hindu family moved into the street and the cultural friendliness and integration was completely different.

Again you’re trying to stifle discussion with lazy isms and phobias. You are making the issue worse by not discussing honestly and openly the issues, I can see you are not going to understand this due to your them and us attitude. This is a shame as I get the feeling you are actually quite bright.

Oh so is this how it works then? You can make false accusations, not have to provide evidence and then not apologise for racist assumptions?

And yet you still expect me to engage with you and answer your questions?

Once you issue me a full unreserved apology for your prejudiced decision that I’m not British then I may consider answering your questions.

We get it, Hindus good, Muslims bad.

No wonder the community keeps to itself if this is how they’re treated. Who would want to integrate into this kind of hatred.

Your friend is absolutely right.. obviously. How that can be ‘racist’ … it coukd only be dubbed that out of ignorance. Seeing cultural misalignments that are glaringly obvious to all is simply ‘perception of reality unimpeded by fear of noticing uncomfy realities’.

”racism” as a term no longer holds value. It’s been thrown around too much to quell uncomfortable discussions.

LOL I rest my case m’Lord.

Firstly I am ethnically Indian. IME most people in England regardless of ethnicity integrate well and have largely the same common interests. I lived in London for some years with white, black and Chinese neighbours and no real integration issues. In many parts of the UK this is the case.

There is a legitimate question around scale and type of migration. In short if you bring in too many migrants too quickly you will get a lack of social cohesion, particularly as in the UK (as opposed to elsewhere) we do nothing to promote cohesion and just assume it will happen.

On the type of migration, if you are focused on letting in skilled nurses, doctors and IT specialists amongst others there will be limited problems. At the moment any (largely young men), who can scrape together £3k for a smuggler can come here and seemingly stop indefinitely.

There is a real problem in some sectors of society overseas with the view of women and I do not think this should be ignored.

There is plenty of integration, it’s just that some cultures are more aligned to British values of tolerance and democracy than others. There’s also too much lack of integration in some communities and yes, they tend to be those with an Islamic background. There isn’t generally the same issue with those from non-Muslim cultures. Oh, and I’ve been to the Notting Hill carnival three times and loved it - I’m happy embracing other cultures where there is a broad overlap of values.

However, many Muslims do integrate, and you can be a Muslim irrespective of your racial heritage. This is a cultural thing, not specifically religious, and definitely not racial.

‘I went to Notting Hill Carnival’ must be the new ‘My best friend is black.’

I see precious little tolerance on this thread. If this is your idea of tolerance then no wonder lots of people aren’t buying it.

Calling them ‘lazy isms and phobias’ is a lazy attempt to dodge the fact that they fit. You’re not challenging ideas - you’re pathologising people, then playing victim when it’s called out. That’s not discourse. That’s deflection. And no - I’m not here to coddle that.

Given your views on living here and how bad it is, where would you prefer?

It’s transparent to everyone what you are doing and what the Islamophobia agenda is, I don’t know why you persist with the charade. It’s over.

Can you explain what "native British Culture" is @ThatBoldBear ?

Hindus I came across integrated well in Oldham - yes. Pakistani Muslims that dominated Oldham come from particular rural areas of Pakistan - with almost medieval view of women’s rights, incest, child marriage etc - bad - yes. Not all obviously - but don't blame the pre existing residents for not integrating with that.

I’m not talking about the fantastic integrated and educated Muslims that have added and enhanced the rich tapestry of British culture. I am only commenting on what happened to Oldham in the 1980s. It didn’t work - it was bad for the town and caused all sorts of quite frankly, hideous outcomes for the population there.

You’re right - it is over. The moment you started pretending that being called out for Islamophobia was some grand conspiracy, the conversation flatlined. If you ever want to talk without the victim complex and the smug superiority act, I’ll be here - but I won’t hold my breath

Britain loves people from Eastern Europe. Really?

Your friend is 100% correct. You are living in a bubble. Ever been to parts of Birmingham, Sparkbrook, Sparkhill?

Yes, I’m intolerant of cultures that are misogynistic, homophobic, attack free speech by pushing for blasphemy laws that protect their religion, and advocate for Sharia Law over UK Law…. but that’s not the flex you think it is.

However, I believe I am generally very tolerant, and believe that British culture is a fundamentally tolerant one that has welcomed many people from all parts of the world and from all races (why do you think so many people are desperate to come here!), but as with any virtue, it has its limits… We shouldn’t be tolerant of things that undermine our society’s foundations.

Ha ha, you are not going to stifle discussion through lazy isms and phobias. Immigration issues are going to be openly discussed and Islam will be open to criticism the same as any political ideology. You need to come to terms with this and start presenting a positive argument rather than attempting to shut down discussion.

One of the best posts on this thread.

Didn’t take long for the mask to slip, eh?

Britain does not have a tolerant culture. Misogyny, racism, ableism and classism is rife. Only the ignorant believe in the 'superior' liberal values of Britain, as spouted by a poster up thread.