Is my best friend racist?

[Newnamefortouchysubject]

Visited my best friend today for lunch and had a conversation that has left me confused, so thought I'd bring it to the MN table.
We were talking about immigration, refugees and asylum seekers.
My friend says the issue is not the colour of people's skin, but rather their culture.
She has no problem with people who wish to settle here when they embrace the UK culture.
Her attitude is that multicultural societies are almost impossible to implement to everyones satisfaction because different cultures have such widely opposing beliefs and values and she believes it is unrealistic to expect to integrate many different cultures and values without considerable conflict between the different cultures.
Furthermore, she believes it is so difficult to integrate different cultures that people of the same ethnicity will inevitably gravitate towards each other and form their own social groups to the exclusion of other ethnic groups, so the whole idea of integration is pointless anyway.
We just end up with lots of different groups of people isolating themselves from other groups who don't share their ethnicity.
She is firmly of the belief that tensions that people describe as racially motivated actually stem from cultural differences, that she knows no one who has any issue with people of different races when they adopt the culture of the country they choose to migrate to, and that the tension is created by ethnic differences and their cultural differences.

I still say this is racism because racism also includes discriminating against people based on their ethnicity. She called me naive if I believe a truly multicultural society is possible when 'you wouldn't even tolerate a friend who has the same ethnicity as you but doesn't share your values so how do you expect to embrace someone's complete different way of life'.
I explained that the way other people choose to live their lives doesn't affect me. She called me naive again at this point and said when people don't have the same values, when they live according to different social rules, it affects people living in their vicinity who don't live like that.

Im not sure whether to raise the subject with her again, or let it lie because she seemed quite adamant and I'm not sure I could make her see this is still racist.

Now I'm wondering if I don't understand what racism is. Maybe I am naive.

What is this obsession you have with people’s skin colour?

America is a new world country that created an origin story for itself based on immigration, opportunity and freedom to those who work hard and look after themselves. So while it has a heritage based on European culture, its situation and sense of self is entirely different. Europe is part of the old world. To the extent European stories have origin stories, they are lost on the mists of time and tell the history of an ethnic group. For England that goes back to King Arthur, Merlin and Excalibur, but eventually blends with verifiable history. For the Italians it goes back to Romulus and Remus being raised by wolves. You can’t just become a part of a group of people with shared ancestry in the same way you can become part of a group of people with a shared migration story. You can be adopted by them. You children can marry them and your grandchildren can be one of them, but you’ll always be from somewhere else. We’ve had attempts recently to copy America by celebrating Windrush, but it’s partially backfired because Britain wasn’t built or even rebuilt after World War Two and it gaslights the native population. Integration is really the only way.

Sex-grooming is not part of any culture. It’s a crime and should be punished. @goodpudding

I agree with her. Like many definitions these days, the definition of racism has widened so much it’s just a lazy insult flung around to silence people who don’t want to see certain practices in the UK.

I'm American & still believe in the melting pot with diversity enriches us all. That tolerance and open-mindedness and diversity is not just possible but the ideal in a society that is democratic rather than majoritarian. There are still absolute standards regardless of cultural norms, but these should be worked out collaboratively and with high cross- cultural consensus not imposed by the 'majority'.

There are so many definitions of racist I can't comment on what OP asked.

Are you sure about that? It’s very much been a cultural issue for hundreds if not 1000s of years, from the Vikings through to ISIS.

💯

I’m not sure that labelling it as racism gets you anywhere.

I'm so sick of these people who shout "racism" at every opportunity!

Your friend is right - it is exceptionally naive to think that we can mix safely with the men who are coming in on the boats. Do you know, that since all this mass migration, rape has increased by 800% in 2 years? Do you know that these men who are holed up in hotels, often follow teenage girls home from school, trying to get with them?

Do you know that in some cultures, girls get married at the age of 9, to men in their 40's? In Iran, women are no longer allowed to sing, even within their own homes. Girls are not allowed to go to school. In some cultures, if a woman is raped, she is stoned to death because it's her fault.

Ever heard of Lara Logan, and what happened to her in Egypt? - if not look it up. Have a sick bucket ready. And ask yourself how hundreds of men all violated her, with not one trying to stop the ordeal.

Who the FUCK would even want to integrate with these "cultures"?

Honestly, I thank my lucky stars that I live in Scotland. I would feel safer and more at home in Australia than London these days.

Trying to present 19 Afghans as the problem is absurd.

There were 200,000 sex offences in the year up to 2023. The vast majority were by white men.

The problem with the melting pot theory is that it's always assumed that new immigrants to western societies will end up adopting the 'superior' liberal culture that they move to. But what has happened, in many countries, is that newer arrivals do not adopt the norms of their new home but wish to impose the norms of their old home. Not in all cases, obviously, but in enough of them that it causes tensions between different racial, religious and cultural groups.

When white people say that there is zero integration of immigrants in British culture, it can only mean they stick to their white culture and don’t socialise outside of it.

Sure, that’s why Brits have a reputation of hooliganism abroad,

I did explain myself. Much of what causes conflict is founded in misogyny.

Heres there classic ‘I’m just asking questions’ routine - as if wrapping prejudice in the language of ‘reasonable concerns’ suddenly makes it noble. Criticism of any belief system is fair game. Blanket suspicion, stereotyping, and fearmongering of people based on their religion? That’s Islamophobia. If the distinction feels uncomfortable, maybe it’s not the label that’s the problem.

There isn’t a culture based around skin colour, maybe sun tan lotion rituals. Do you mean British people? What white people are saying there is zero integration? European immigrant integration into the UK has been successful.

Did you even read the posts you’re responding to? Clearly not! Red it again. JoyofNC said ‘There is no integration. Not even an attempt.’

So South Asian, Chinese, Middle Eastern people don’t contribute to the UK? Any statistics for this abhorrent view?

as an aside - it is often said that Britain has always been multi-cultural. And to some extent that is true. But the claim is exaggerated. e.g. the Windrush generation (immigrants to Britain from Commonwealth countries) covers the period 1948-71 and the total number of immigrants is estimated to be around 500,000.

Last year alone, net migration to UK was 430,000. It's inevitable that those kind of numbers are going to cause all sorts of issues.

It’s not going to work, you aren’t going to be able to stifle people expressing opinion because they don’t follow your religion. Free speech is ingrained into British culture.

“According to the Office for National Statistics this week, Britain’s “indigenous” population in the 2030s will be static and ageing. Growth in population* *will be buoyed only by immigrants, their number predicted to rise by 5 million over the next seven years.”

Do you refuse to let an immigrant doctor or nurse treat you in a hospital? Will you object to an immigrant care home worker wiping your arse when you’re in an old care home? No. So maybe show some gratitude to immigrants for doing jobs white Brits don’t want to do.

ISIS is a terrorist group i.e. criminals.

What remained of Viking culture was being absorbed into the culture of Christian Europe.

Did you mean the below? clearly about illegal immigration. Why the ‘white’ thing? Why the disingenuous quoting? If you dislike ‘white’ people so much, why do you want to live in a country where they make up over 80%? Is it purely for economic reasons or is there anything culturally you like?

’It's always the people who have absolutely 0 experience of living in the places where all the illegal migrants are put that want to defend them.
Maybe go and see it for yourself OP. There is no integration. Not even an attempt.’

I agree with her 100%.

My parents were immigrants :)

very few people argue for zero immigration, it is the huge numbers over a very short period of time that that is causing problems.

and yes, our societal and economic model needs to change so that we no reliant on ever-increasing numbers of immigrants

It’s not clearly about illegal migrants. Zero integration means she thinks no one has integrated.

I like most white people just fine, just as I like most people.

If you dislike immigrants so much, why do you want to live in a country where they make up over 16%? Is it purely for economic reasons or is there anything culturally you like?