To think there are very few allies against Anti-Semitism?

[Longingdreamer]

This month, I have had experienced Anti-Semitism twice. Both times I was with my children.

Both times, my children were distressed, and no one around did anything to protect us or raise the alarm. When we asked for help, we were dismissed. We were in very busy public spaces both times: a tube platform, then a high street.

I reported the first episode to the police. I'm not even sure if it's worth reporting the second episode. Sadly it feels so mainstream, and the authorities are not supportive when I report it either.

Thank you. I do understand the fear people have in London, and it's not unfounded sadly. Unfortunately no one helped when I asked for it afterwards either, when there was no immediate danger to themselves. This seems rather unforgivable.

Most Jewish people in the UK are Zionist.

Whether they support the actions the Israeli government take or not is an entirely separate issue.

All the talk of Israel I find a bit of a derailment, but as a point of information, the majority of Jews in the UK identify as Zionists. This means that they believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist, and nothing more.

Zionist has been misappropriated as a term.

'Israel has a right to exist' - what does that mean in practice?

Many members of all minorities are not necessarily visible as part of that minority

I think this is what PP was saying.
I don’t think they are coming from a place of ignorance or racism - some people I can tell are Jewish or Muslim from how they look. Others, I wouldn’t have had a clue unless they told me or I could infer it from something they said. One Muslim colleague looks Caucasian/white and a Jewish neighbour looks South American.
It just shows that Jewish people (and those of other religions) cannot and should not be typecast or judged as a group.

Yes, unfortunately this thread is an example of antisemitism.

That said, would you mind if we continue the discourse about what antisemitism is and is not? I do think one of the big problems with antisemitism is how poorly understood it is, to the extent that people (often non-hateful) engage in it without realizing.

People tend to associate Israel as state, with the Jewish people more widely. Sadly many people are not understanding that the actions of Israel are those of a state, not a whole people.

Its quite scary for many people that western governments aren't intervening to help the Gazans, & anti semites/hate groups prey on the fear and spread disinformation.

No, but it is apparently now illegal?

No it is not fatuous to argue otherwise. Should we just ignore the atrocities they are committing because it might offend citizens of Israel and those who support the Israeli government? Because it doesn’t work that way. We can’t give one country a free pass to do what it likes without criticism. It’s really dangerous to suggest that we should.

Agree.

IMO, Zionists should live in Israel. But many don't. There are celeb Brit Zionists who are not shy about wanting the Palestinians out. In the same way there are Brit Jews who are appalled by the destruction.

You may find all the ‘talk’ of Israel derailing but to try to claim that the genocide of an entire people by a Israel, a majority Jewish state, is somehow not relevant is naive at best.
But if you can’t give or won’t give details of what the antisemitism you experience entailed then no-one here can really say whether or not bystanders should have intervened. I hope the police get you some sort of resolution.

as a point of information, the majority of Jews in the UK identify as Zionists. This means that they believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist, and nothing more.

"Israel" with what borders/territory? That is the question. There is no universally agreed principle.

I did give details in follow up posts, if you read the thread. Honestly, stop talking about Israel, it sounds like you are trying to justify Anti-Semitism.

Zionists should live in Israel? So I'm British born to British born parents and I believe Israel should exist and Jewish people have the right to self determination. Are you saying you think I should leave the UK?

Of course, people have different beliefs. If you talk to most Israelis, you will find that they just want a peaceful resolution, with whatever that may entail, in order to be able to live without fear.

With the rise of Anti-Semitism across the world, it only reinforces the need for a Jewish state.

Misappropriating the term of 'Zionist' is offensive. It's often a way of being Anti-semitic with impunity.

I think if you support the actions of Israel against Palestine, the land grab and the killing of Palestinians, then yes. You should.

If you support the existence of Israel, but think the current drive to wipe out Palestine is wrong, then that is very different.

In the same way, pro-apartheid South Africans, would not have been welcome in the UK. Those not supporting racist and violent political systems are of course welcome.

So this is some pretty appalling antisemitism.

Crap. The thread’s about horrible instances of antisemitism. You just don’t like comment on the cause of that antisemitism.

I think if you support the actions of Israel against Palestine, the land grab and the killing of Palestinians, then yes. You should

But that's not the definition of a Zionist.

You said Zionists should live in Israel.

It's 'antisemitic' to point out that many Jews don't support the actions of Israel?

Well I believe Israel has a right to exist. I don’t think that should come at the expense of Palestinian territory and that Israel will need to make serious compromises and they need to stop their current actions in Gaza. There needs to be a two state solution.

I can’t believe there are people who say that criticism of Israel’s actions is antisemitic. That is precisely why some people don’t take antisemitism seriously. Because of ludicrous claims that critiquing a government amounts to hate against a race. Is it racist to criticise Zimbabwe or other African countries? Of course not. Is it Islamophobic to criticise Afghanistan or Iraq? Again, no. It’s nonsense to suggest that. And the more people say it, the angrier people get because they can see what is happening and they can see what a load of bullshit the antisemitism claim (in relation to criticism of Netanyahu) is.

Yes, I accept this. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

No. Obviously.

"Zionists should live in Israel" is the clearly antisemitic statement.

And I have clarified my meaning.

Ok thanks

But you said Zionists should live in Israel.

I'm Zionist as in I believe Israel should exist and Jews have the right of self determination.

So do you stand by the notion that I should leave the UK and move to Israel?