To be glad schools are finally hitting back

[Teachingquestion]

Over the last couple of days I've seen more stories about schools introducing new rules and sending students home who won't comply.
I'm in a really tricky school about to do the same (when we start back) and the staff are so relieved. Teachers on here : are you glad to see it?

I mean, in secondary school I vividly remember we were so poor (my mum's choices led to it) that I didn't even have a bag most of the time. I didn't have pens, pencils, anything. I turned up and had to borrow pens constantly. I understand the rules are there for a reason but I also think there should be some leniency when children can't control their circumstances if that makes sense.

Middle school.

The school DS is going to to next year (hopefully - we're a bit touch and go on distance) is going the opposite way. They just stopped detention entirely and have made a policy decision to stop fussing over uniform infractions. It's rated outstanding and has some of the best improvement stats in the UK. It's non-selective but in a very well to do area.

I expect this will start to be the norm sadly. That kids in poorer areas are treated like little criminals and those in rich areas will be trusted to have some more freedom.

I see no reason ever for the crack down on tiny uniform issues at all to be honest. What a waste of energy.

There is some good news for this mum. Children don't need to drink water/squash constantly all day to avoid getting dehydrated. They can just drink before school, lunch time, and at 4.00pm and they'll be fine (unless it's exceptionally hot weather). So perhaps either the daughter is exaggerating about getting dehydrated or the mum really is one of those awkward parents.

Where l live they have stopped the children bringing phones into school .
I fully support it

Yes 100% agree. My DS’ have left school now but some of the rules were absolutely ridiculous, re uniform and kit. DS2 got a dentention once for a uniform “violation” when school contacted me was very surprised as he attended school that day with everything he had been wearing for months. It was his shoes apparently, he was wearing sketchers shoes NOT trainers, I made sure they were all black as per the uniform policy. But they weren’t a “formal” shoe. He had hurt his Achilles tendon and the Skechers were more comfortable, I was then told to get a letter from the GP, I said no I won’t be doing that, my GP has better thing to do with his time. I wanted to say he’s severely dyslexic, hates school, but turns up and does his best, what more do you want him to do, because things like this do not help. I didn’t agree with them having to wear shirt, tie & blazer on very hot days either. They were unable to remove blazers unless class teacher gave permission. Also got in trouble for not having a green biro, these aren’t easy to buy either.

Current uniform standards are out of touch with the majority of workplaces. I'd rather see more practical uniforms using a range of generic items which would be more affordable and accomodate sensory sensitivities. How the finer details on what distinguishes a black leather, rubber soled shoe from a black leather, rubber soled trainer affects learning, I have never worked out and frankly, I'd rather pupils wore practical, weather proof black shoes and boots than boys kicking through dress shoes, and girls shuffling around and destroying their feet in ballet pumps.

Equipment does matter. Many years ago in a deprived town I had a class of 26 who generally didn't want to be there. One day 21 of them had nothing to write with- not even being fussy about particular pens, I just wanted them to be able to write. Anything I lent to them was taken, broken or lobbed out of the window. Every single week I bought tens of pens that didn't last the week.
Many years later, my Friday p5 class featured a lovely ND lad who I'd previously taught and knew the chances of him having a pen by that stage of the week was very low. I bought him a nice pen that he was instructed to keep clipped on to his book and he managed to keep it all year. I was happy to do that knowing it was mutually appreciated. He coped with the simple rule of that pen having a particular place to be put rather than transitions of transporting it.

Schools need clear rules and order, but they need to be centered on how they enhance learning, not being punitive and exclusionary for the sake of image.

in most jobs, if you are scatty, forget what you are supposed to take, don't submit work on time, you get sacked. If you turn up at an interview in an inappropriate outfit, you won't get the job. If you dress inappropriately for the environment you are in, first rules have to be added to handbook, then you also get the door.

That's what you are spectacularly missing.

It teaches them that work has rules and they need to be followed, because they’re not the Special Ones.

Nobody is suggesting kids shouldn't be dressed "appropriately" but I've never worked anywhere that I had to wait for permission to remove a jacket when it's hot (and anyway most workplaces are kept temperate!) and actually in the parts of London that I live and work the only people who wear full suit and tie are estate agents, and even they're not expected to wear a particular tie or the exact pair of shoes. Actually maybe cabin crew on some airlines might be ALMOST as strict as some of the schools you're defending. Can't think of any other jobs though.

Some of the uniform requirements are absolutely ridiculous. And I won't support a detention for them, not when absolute violent shits can abuse other children and get treated with kid gloves.

During the last heatwave dd had to take her blazer in to school.

She didn't have to wear it. But she had to take it in. And the teachers actually wasted time checking children had brought their blazers in to school.

In a heatwave.

Fucking mental academies.

It really depends on what they are being stricter on. Bullying and disruptive behaviour then yes that’s great. If it’s uniform then I don’t support that. I wasted the majority of my secondary school years in isolation due to not wearing a uniform that I didn’t have - whilst kids that were prolific bullies were allowed to stay in class with very little punishments.

As an experienced teacher, I haven't taught in the state system for years because I can't bear being put in a position where I am forced to enforce petty rules that are all about control and nothing to do with education. Schools should not be prisons where children's movements and freedoms are restricted.

Children do not need to wear a uniform to be 'ready to learn.' I teach in a school with no uniform rules whatsoever - the kids can wear whatever they like. We trust them to make sensible and appropriate choices and guess what - they do.

If children forget equipment or books - then we just lend/give them what they need and don't make a big deal out of it. We all forget things sometimes. Why should we punish them for asking them to have too much on their plates? Kids as young as 11 are expected to rush around school from lesson to lesson, going to different classrooms each time, and to different subjects with different equipment requirements. Would an adult remember every little thing each of those 6 teachers had asked them to do/bring to their lesson that day? Probably not. It's normal that they might forget something sometimes and the right response is kindness and understanding rather than shame and punishment.

If children are late, we find out why and deal with the root cause. Very rarely is it children being wilfully disruptive. Most of the time there are issues going on at home or school that need intervention and the lateness is a symptom of something much deeper. Punishing a child for finding it difficult to come to school is nothing but counterproductive.

No child should ever be told no when they ask to use the toilet. That is barbaric.

A lot of the time in these draconian academy schools, children are disruptive because they don't see the point in what they're learning and they have so little control/autonomy over their day-to-day lives. They have to sit in rows and listen and make notes with no choices and no opportunity to move around or chat. If their classrooms were creative, collaborative environments where they could move freely, work on learning projects that they had agency over and understood the purpose of, and had warm and engaging relationships with their teachers, who they saw as allies rather then enemies, then the classroom environment doesn't become a space of combat but one of community, and then you don't need rules to keep kids in line.

I might also add that another reason why so many children are disruptive is because what they learn is utterly pointless and boring, or inaccessible to them. We badly need to shake up the system in this country. A good 50% of children shouldn't be doing GCSEs and A Levels and should be working towards practical, apprenticeship-style qualifications that will lead them to fulfilling work. It's trying to force kids without the interest or intellectual capacity to do formal qualifications in subjects they don't like, don't understand and don't see the point in studying that causes so many issues in school. If the content of what students were learning matched their needs and interests, they wouldn't be disengaged or disruptive.

So many schools have got it so wrong. And unfortunately the majority of communities in which these draconian schools exist are ones with the highest levels of disadvantage, and their approach merely exacerbates existing societal issues in those communities rather than doing anything to improve or enrich those children's lives or future opportunities.

Are these new rules of the ridiculous variety? ….. For example…….students MUST wear a blazer when it’s 30deg+ ?!?! Have some of these teachers, Heads, governors never heard of heat stroke?!?! All brains and no common sense springs to mind…….rant over!

It's actually really sad that we're treating kids like this. I really don't understand the mentality of those who support it - I don't mean teachers here. I understand that most of them think it's bollocks as well but HAVE to enforce the stupid rules because the trust has decided it's the hill to die on - but the people who say things like "it's setting them up for the world of work" or it's "teaching them resilience". It isn't. It's teaching them they may as well do something that is ACTUALLY bad since they'll get punished either way. It's also breeding anxiety and a hatred of school in otherwise good kids. I've seen kids who love learning and are super keen in primary go up to secondary and just lose all motivation.
I just don't get why we treat them all like criminals, just in case.

Sorry to post then go MIA. Tough day here.
To clarify:
We have now insisted on a zero tolerance to violence and racist language (we had got into a bad habit of needing 'evidence' to the point where teachers were asking for body cam. Students using racist slurs, to which parents said staff or students were mistaken. As there was no cctv, they just kind of buckled to the parents.
We have a school improvement partner now, some uniform rules are changing like length of skirts . This has been necessary due to public complaints about indecency

Which new rules aren't they complying with? There's no context.

I'm another who hates these strict punishments and rules.

My DD is a rule follower and always had correct uniform. Unfortunately she was so stressed and anxious from seeing others pulled out in front of class and punished that she developed OCD about getting ready for school each evening.

By the time she had eaten and done homework and sorted and re sorted her school bag and pencil case countless times and checked and checked she had clean blouse ( she always did but obsessed about it) she wasn't getting to bed until midnight. It was exhausting.

She also has IBD which means she was access to the disabled toilets but the teachers kept forgetting and would shout at her through the door and tell her off for being in the loo during lesson time.

We had to remove her from that school and transfer her to private for the sake of her mental health.

One thing I will always remember is her not wanting to eat in case she got fatter and her school trousers got tighter. The teachers used to pull girls up in front of class and do a pinch test to check trousers were not skinny fit.

My DD was tiny due to her illness and we had to buy skinny fit just to make them look like normal fit otherwise she would have all the material bagging up around her waist.

Oh and don't dare grow taller during term time as the minute those trousers show a bit of ankle it's isolation for you!

I wish I could go back in time and shout at the head teacher for all the long term damage they did to my DD's mental health during her short time there.

I work in a very large high school. The vast majority of kids turn up on time, equipped and ready to learn. They behave well and are respectful. Most kids have less than 10 behaviour marks for the whole year. The trouble makers are persistent. Some come from a background where you make allowances and have sympathy for their inability to follow rules but too many break the rules and their parents back them up every single time. I genuinely think the majority of parents of naughty kids think it’s normal and all kids get detentions all the time. They really don’t.

You sound sensible and lovely and I really wish all education professionals shared your outlook.
It's amazing how differently kids are treated in private school. No self respecting parent is going to want to pay to send their kids to an abusive prison style environment.

Cross posted, thanks for the clarification.

However, why is zero tolerance to violence and racism a new thing? Or do you mean that you're no longer required to provide evidence? If it's the latter, it's a slippery slope. Of course you need evidence of wrong doing, otherwise surely it's one person's word against another. And I don't doubt that malicious accusations are made. I'm still not much clearer on what you mean.

I don't think the answer to problems regarding uniform rules is more uniform rules, either.

Yes, and if you can't read, you'll have a tough time getting a job as well, but if a child struggles to learn to read, we don't punish them. We spend extra time helping them learn to read.

And actually, employers are obliged to make reasonable adjustments for staff with disabilities or ND. For example, if you work from home, you can't forget equipment. If you have an assigned desk and all your equipment stays on that desk, you are less likely to lose it. If you struggle to remember deadlines, your manager might be obliged to provide you with reminders. It's a legal duty.

Lacking equipment is a massive PITA. it wastes so much time making sure everyone has what they need, counting it out and trying to get it all back at the end. It wastes money too as sometimes you lend out so much equipment there is always stuff that doesn’t get handed back.

The toilet issue is weird. I’ve taught over 20 years. When kids needed the loo, they’d ask and I would let them go. Something happened about five years ago where I think there were some stories in the press about schools not letting kids go and it has become a massive issue when it never used to be. Our school policy is if they ask, they can go. I will be teaching the lesson after break and I guarantee one after another will ask to go until about 15 have asked to be excused. It never used to be like this. As a menopausal woman with a bladder like an acorn, it irritates me when people get funny about toilet visits as I have to wait until break and can’t just walk out. Obviously some kids have a medical need but most don’t but they are out every lesson.

My friend (an excellent and really passionate English teacher) has just left the profession because she was experiencing persistent sexual harassment (inappropriate comments and a groped bum more than once) and the schools (plural!) did absolutely nothing about it.
My boy starts high school in a year and is going to a school who brought a new, much stricter behaviour policy in last year. I welcome it.

Well i imagine if i told my child they couldn't take their blazer off until I said so when it's hot outside or I grounded them for hours because they forgot to bring a pencil down to do their homework or I made them sit in a room for hours and hours because they had their shirt untucked some (school) would flag it a a safeguarding concern.