To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike? Thread 2

[Locutus2000]

Rolling this over as people still seem to have something to say but no new poll.

Original post

AIBU to think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

CrinklyNosey that’s absolutely fair, that not all resident doctors should be tarred with the same brush but to be fair a few posters are just balancing out the complete nonsense that gets disseminated on medical threads that they are all awesome (which they are demonstrably not).

"What % of mistakes are due to arrogance (as you suggest), and what % are due to the hellishly long hours doctors are made to work, the poor work conditions, underfunding and general stress resident doctors are under?"

Like Marchesman -this is making me giggle hysterically.
What is hellishly long about doing a week of nights like many jobs?
Poor work conditions - what is lacking - I have somewhere to sit and make a cup of tea, heat up my food I brought in and decompress on my break - just like many jobs

Sorry - the hours are not that long anymore, one week of nights and the rest a standard 40 hr week - with half days, zero days etc.
Caring for people and making major decisions has always been stressful and always will be stressful
The ST6 whose shift I covered last night takes home £96000 for an average working week of 46 hrs - not bad by anyones scale of pay.

Do I agree with this strike - no, not at all.
Would I support in the fees interest rate for all students not just medical students - yes

sprry the interest rate being dropped

I do hope all of you who dislike resident doctors so much, and seemingly the NHS in general, have full health insurance and never use it!

I can't see PA in the list posted by mumsneedwine.

I don’t agree with the strikes either, and have worked. But how does as ST6 take home £96k?? I ask as a ST7 surgical reg?

They don’t. A quick google search shows you they don’t

Oh dear - sorry gross pay is £96040
Please let me show you the GWS
ST6-8 Nodal point 5
Basic Pay £70425 for a 40 hr week
Pay for 7.75 hr overtime £13645
Enhance pay at 37% -1 hr £662
Weekend Allowance -- £3522
Avilability Allowance -£5634
London Weighting -£2162

Total £96040

This is not a bad wage

From a genuine GWS - not AI belonging to my niece

It’s one of the final stages of training, so you’d hope they were paid well!!

8 yrs after graduating that is not bad. That is a good wage in what ever job.

No apology - Rains - for implying I am a liar!

These are people who have the health of the nation in their hands. You’d hope they were paid well and treated fairly.

'The health of the nation in their hands'?

Calm down Churchill.

Rains - as a doctor myself - that comment is ridiculous.
The health of a person is in their own hands - not a doctors.

@RainSoakedNights

You say this as if being a doctor is the only important job. What about people who keep the supermarket shelves stocked? Where would doctors be without food, electricity, water, transport etc?

There are hundreds of critically important jobs that keep the country running, and most of them aren’t anywhere near as well paid as doctors. I’m really sick of the sense of entitlement.

And they should be better paid too. As a nation we should be better paid. You’re nearly getting it.

Yes these are very silly comparisons
Locksmiths work is intermittent. They might have a high hourly rate but they will not get as many hours
Plus I never heard of a locksmith or a plumber with a final salary pension.

But they are more than replaced by those who come into the NHS from abroad much to the annoyance of exactly these same resident Drs who don’t want the competition

The BMA’s messaging is all over the shop

’1,000s of unemployed Drs’ and at the same time ‘pay is more or we’ll all go abroad’

How can both of these be true??
Why do we need to pay more to attract more Drs when apparently there is actually an oversupply??

Do you not understand they’re unemployed because of government schemes like the physicians associates? So they’re not only undervalued that way, but they’re also underpaid?

I understand perfectly well and likely better than you
I am an NHS Consultant of many years standing and I have just been covering for this bloody strike so I have skin in this game.
It is completely untrue that Drs are unemployed because of PAs. We had a previous full thread in which a very interesting GMC report was linked showing that the main reason that FY Drs did not get training rotation posts in previous years was that they simply did not apply for them preferring to do lucrative locum work.
https://www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/somep-workforce-report-2024-full-report_pdf-109169408.pdf

I have linked it so that you can inform yourself.

If you do not apply you will not get a job - simple equation.

Yes there has been a stupid step in allowing the world to apply for jobs and there needs to be a measured responses.
Competition in medicine is what drives people to try harder, push boundaries and improve care. If you guarantee someone at aged 18, a training, a post graduate job and then post gradate training without any competition along the way - you get complacent arrogant people who do not have to go the extra mile to get where they need to be.
That is not the real world and the odd knock along the way build resilience

I don’t often agree with you, @Clavinova , but this is brilliant

Do you not understand that the number of training posts in secondary care is determined by consultant retirals?

The extra bodies supporting the service are PAs or locally employed doctors. Only if you are in favour of more non-training posts can you reasonably complain about PAs. Which the BMA are not as far as I can see.

So a take home of £50,205.06 after PAYE, pension, student loan and NI deductions.

ST6s are eligible to get Fellowship and so should be largely independent, particularly for on call stuff. Many have also taken extra time in training to do PhDs etc. In my current job all 3 ST6-7 trainees have done PhDs and have been qualified and working clinically for 11-14yrs. I’m not saying the pay is bad, but looking at the cost of housing and living, the equivalent 2007 contract pay for ST6 (which I enjoyed reverting to 3-4yrs ago for 2 years of my research) and the responsibilities of the job, it’s also not great!

As above, I’m against the strikes, as I’m a doctor and I’m ok with my pay. I think there are other much bigger problems that need attention first.

*hours calc screenshot from here - for the £96k gross. mindthebleep.com/resident-doctor-pay-calculator/

Critically important, I agree.

But, the difference is literally anyone can do one of those jobs, and virtually nobody can do the other one.

I think people, and even other doctors forget just how critical every decision out of hindreds even an F1 doctor makes during a typical day might be.

Get the concentration of potassium wrong in an IV - potentially dead. prescribe an antibiotic that has a cross reactivity with penicillin to someone who's allergic - potentially dead. Prescribe paracetamol without checking liver function - potentially dead. Prescribe heparin to someone who might bleed, or dont prescribe it to someone who might clot - potentially dead...

That's a pretty hugh level of responsibility at we're not even touching on the higher level decision making and management like when to start antiobiitics, which scan to order, who might need an operation.