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To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike? Thread 2

1000 replies

Locutus2000 · 22/07/2025 11:23

Rolling this over as people still seem to have something to say but no new poll.

Original post

AIBU to think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike? | Mumsnet

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises. BMA have just announced...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5369651-to-think-the-bma-have-misjudged-with-another-doctors-strike

OP posts:
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36
Sevillian · 03/08/2025 15:41

ShellacofChopin · 03/08/2025 14:43

Not generalising at all. I was specifically answering the question about how did I know the individual was not of medical school calibre. If you are scraping Bs at A level in an expensive private school, you are clearly not meeting the minimum 3 As or A star A A that is standard offer for medical school. It's really not that deep.

I think when you are talking about middling GCSEs and A levels, they would only be accepted in contextual cases and the individual I spoke of was the polar opposite of that in terms of their circumstances.

No it's not deep at all. You were attempting to tar all PAs by way of this one example.

In terms of middling A levels from a leafy comp I'm talking about the grades which a number of the least competitive UK medical schools accept. I'm not talking about contextual allowances at all.

ShellacofChopin · 03/08/2025 16:09

Sevillian · 03/08/2025 15:41

No it's not deep at all. You were attempting to tar all PAs by way of this one example.

In terms of middling A levels from a leafy comp I'm talking about the grades which a number of the least competitive UK medical schools accept. I'm not talking about contextual allowances at all.

Edited

No I wasn't at all. I was quite clearly giving one example.

Could you be a bit more specific about which specific medical schools take lower grades without contextual flags?

And what about the UCAT? That's a key element of the selection process for Medicine but not currently for PA Masters courses. Many would say that's tougher than getting the A levels required.

Sevillian · 03/08/2025 19:21

What was the illustrative purpose you refer to then? A single example used to 'illustrate' suggests that it has a wider purpose.

ShellacofChopin · 03/08/2025 19:29

I refuse to participate in this pedantry and looking for hidden meanings that are not there. It's perfectly obvious what I was illustrating and why. I'm not engaging with you further. I've seen how these things go with you and I've got better ways to spend my time.

stuffedpeppers · 03/08/2025 19:38

I am sorry Shellac - you come across as extremely condescending to everyone but doctors. I have worked with many junior doctors ( was one myself) and many PAs. I have worked with junior doctors who have As and the godawful B grade you think so little of. I have worked with PAs who have 3As and those who have lower grades.

Some are good and some are bad in both camps, but a national pay scale was set, outside of their control and that is life.

5 yrs on for some of the PAs with A*AA, a First class degree in Science they are stuck on the same pay scale and have maxed out their pay progression. Have developed skills that some of our residents do not have and some do. Their careers are evolving but in a different way to a doctor.
Some of our PAs have not grown and remain at the same level -please stop being so rude and using one example to deride a whole group of people who just like doctors, want to look after patients and make them better.

ShellacofChopin · 03/08/2025 19:49

stuffedpeppers · 03/08/2025 19:38

I am sorry Shellac - you come across as extremely condescending to everyone but doctors. I have worked with many junior doctors ( was one myself) and many PAs. I have worked with junior doctors who have As and the godawful B grade you think so little of. I have worked with PAs who have 3As and those who have lower grades.

Some are good and some are bad in both camps, but a national pay scale was set, outside of their control and that is life.

5 yrs on for some of the PAs with A*AA, a First class degree in Science they are stuck on the same pay scale and have maxed out their pay progression. Have developed skills that some of our residents do not have and some do. Their careers are evolving but in a different way to a doctor.
Some of our PAs have not grown and remain at the same level -please stop being so rude and using one example to deride a whole group of people who just like doctors, want to look after patients and make them better.

What nonsense. I haven't mentioned any group apart from F1s and PAs. Your projections are starting to get slightly weird now.

Although I would still love to know all those medical schools that are allegedly making standard offers of B grades without any contextual flags. I guess we'll never know.

Sevillian · 03/08/2025 20:48

Well if you're prepared to give mumsneedwine your personal email address she'll send you her legendary 'spreadsheet', if you are actually interested. They'll be there at a glance. Or just dial up the lower ranked medical schools yourself on the internet - not hard.

mumsneedwine · 05/08/2025 11:05

Ah still as rude as ever 😂😂😂. Happy to send over if you want it. Maybe then you'd understand Medical School admissions a little better.

mumsneedwine · 05/08/2025 11:09

PAs are not doctors - read the Leng review. They should not be acting as doctors or doing procedures that they are not qualified for (as they are not insured). They have a role, as assistants. And should not be paid Band 7. V simple.

Some consultants like them because they don't have to rotate so it's easier to train them up and not bother again. Like doctors want to constantly move ! You are paid to train residents, like consultants trained you. Don't want to do that then give back the money.

mumsneedwine · 05/08/2025 11:11

And over 50% of PAs do not have a science degree. Many don't have any previous training in healthcare. So all they have is a 2 year course. Look at the exam questions - my A level students could pass it !

Needmoresleep · 08/08/2025 11:13

A lengthy essay. I have a lot to say!

Well its been two days since DD joined the ranks of the unemployed, along with 50% of her year. A lot have already gone to Australia. She and her friend are trying to tough it out but it won't be easy.

They are lucky they are in a hard to recruit area, where doctors recruited from overseas or those on specialist training tend not to stay long term, so there is work. In other parts of the country those in her position will be struggling to get more than a handful of shifts each month and having to make up the rest with other zero hours jobs. Bizarrely they are even short of F1s, the first level of foundation training. In the past when F1 allocation was done on merit and British medical graduates seemed to get some priority, DDs deanery was one of the least popular which meant taking those on least points, but also making up numbers with some very good IMGs. Her area still operates the 2005 contract, rather than the English one, so pay is lower and working conditions are tougher, and where F1/F2s form the backbone of cover. DD may find herself back in her first F1 job but paid £26 per hour. (She is older and wiser and knows to avoid shifts around pub closing times on a Friday or Saturday night.) My guess is that word has got out to IMGs that it is tough working for a part of the NHS that is on its knees with limited chance of training or even a job afterwards.

Her friend has a short term contract in geriatrics. The sort of job where experienced nurses do much of the work and consultants/senior registrars can be called if there is a crisis but a doctor is still needed for prescriptions. Difficult hours, an hour's commute, relatively unchallenging, and little learning, career progression or opportunities for the sort of research etc now demanded to progress. She is very very good, the first in her working class family to go to University and wants to stay in the area she comes from. She sees no future and is applying to Australia.

DD, in contrast comes from a much more advantaged background: a well known private school and grandparents, parents and a sibling who have all spent time at Oxbridge. (Stealth boast alert.) She is also very good and hard working. She took five A levels, had a senior school leadership position, went to national championships in one major sport and represented the county and region in two others, whilst spending Sundays at a regional arts programme later teaching it at Camp America. She gained good fluency in a MFL and had good exposure to hard work through a vacation job and a gap year. She gained an intercalated degree from Imperial in Engineering, and spent her elective in a research lab where she was invited to apply for a PhD if she ever decided to leave medicine.

DD picked medicine because she wanted to be a hands on hospital doctor. She rejected school advice to try for Oxbridge as she is dyslexic and though bright, does not enjoy writing essays. Lockdown happened in the middle of her medical school training and she, like many in her outdoorsy friendship group, elected for F1/F2 outside England. She also liked the idea of starting her career with solid experience. She loves where she is, intended to try and complete specialist training there and has even bought a house. The rotations she picked have been very heavily loaded, and she is still unsure what she wants to specialise in, so had planned an F3 to give herself a chance to think and prepare.

It was only in about March this year when panic hit. Boris' decision, supported by the BMA, to withdraw the Resident Migrant Labour Test (RMLT) for all doctor jobs including the sort of entry level jobs DD and her peers need, as well as for specialist training opportunities, offering exemptions and expedited settlement rights, has been catastrophic. DD only knew two who got on specialist training, one who had been under the wing of a consultant from the get-go and another who wanted to be a GP. Over 50% of posts went to graduates from overseas medical schools. This region risks losing a generation who were born in the area, studied at the local University and who would have contributed for a full career. As a London landlord I recently interviewed a young doctor who was about to start a year-long F3. Because that sort of job will attract hundreds of overseas applicants he reckoned he had spent 6 months FTE to land anything. I would have given him, and his doctor companions, the tenancy even though their base salaries were unlikely to have been sufficient for affordability checks. Unfortunately I suspect he had only just landed the job, as he needed to start without two weeks but was still naive about how fast he needed to move to grab a rental property. (He also confirmed that his mother is as angry as I am.)

DD is lucky. Longer term we have the resources and contacts to allow her to take time out to prepare for a specialist training application. One reason why those in her deanery do badly is that selection for several specialities is national and with heavy work schedules and lack of access to research, conferences etc, they cannot compete with those, say, on two year courses gathering the paperwork (published research etc) that the NHS seems to think makes a good senior doctor. A junior registrar she was working alongside confirmed that his parents had effectively bought him his training place. Paid for publication in "low impact" journals in China, a year out to gain a Masters degree with a research element and so on. Is this what patients want? Given so many mid career specialists now leave the NHS/UK for the private sector either in the UK or overseas (last month one English, newly appointed, consultant I know decided to upsticks with her family and head for Dubai) the current approach seems short term. Particularly in the regions. Local staff are surely much more likely to stay post training than those whose roots are elsewhere.

Short term, DD has done well in her placements, and so is likely to be chosen for locum work ahead of those less known. She bumped into a consultant from a busy department which still has a locum budget and he has offered as many shifts as she wants. Inevitably NHS bank have taken an age to process her application, so yesterday she tried a private agency who phoned her within 15 minutes and had it all done and dusted, including compulsory on-line training and references, within three hours and who expect to have her work for this weekend. I guess they will charge the NHS more, but no one seems to care. She is effectively self employed so has to cover things that the striking doctors take for granted like pension and insurance, but there is scope to work hard and earn a lot. The irony is that she can, as happened during F2, expect to spend time supporting doctors senior to her, or who are on specialist training, who are new to the NHS. Without touching the question of whether overseas doctors are "better", I would suggest that there seem to be more filters in UK medical education. DD has come across more senior doctors who are unaware of well known and established research that forms the basis of NHS treatment protocols, or are unused to working with women or reluctant to listen their juniors whether they are nurses, doctors or other HCPs. One more senior colleague asked her so many basic questions she wondered whether he actually had any medical training.

In parallel she has started applying for Australia. It may be that she won't be able to stay in medicine and will have to switch to engineering but given she has already invested eight years she thinks it worth giving it another go, in a health service that is under less strain. Her assumption was that because Australia uses a RMLT she would be in an isolated mining or farming town. The application form impressed her as it focussed on what she had done and the procedures she was used to. (In her case a lot - her deanery works F1/F2s hard and gives them quite a lot of responsibility.) Unlike the NHS she was asked for references, which again strengthened her application. She got an interview almost immediately in her chosen speciality at a major hospital in a state capital. A question about what she did outside work allowed her to exhibit her understanding of the differences between RFL and Aussie Rules. (Posters on previous threads who clearly were close to NHS policy making went as far as to say that F1/F2s should be focussing on training applications and if they had interests outside work it was their fault they were not progressing.) She really hopes she gets it as the job offers her the chance to be involved in research and to conduct audits. She would like to build her career in the UK but it looks as if the only career pathway available (other than us throw money at the problem) is to move overseas.

DD and her capable and hard-working friends simply do not understand why there is no reward for merit at any point in the process.

TD:LR the NHS is a shit show and is letting its young doctors down badly. The BMA is equally culpable for its delay in saying anything, its prioritisation of doctor pay, and its failure to address the root of the problem: Boris' lifting of the RMLT.

W0tnow · 08/08/2025 13:19

How utterly depressing.

I read a post recently here on mumsnet that doctors moving to Australia should be compelled to immediately repay their student loans because why should the UK government invest in training only for them to jump ship. I really think people don’t understand that the current choice for so many is unemployment or alternative career in the UK, or doctor in Australia (or NZ, Canada etc).

Needmoresleep · 08/08/2025 13:42

W0tnow · 08/08/2025 13:19

How utterly depressing.

I read a post recently here on mumsnet that doctors moving to Australia should be compelled to immediately repay their student loans because why should the UK government invest in training only for them to jump ship. I really think people don’t understand that the current choice for so many is unemployment or alternative career in the UK, or doctor in Australia (or NZ, Canada etc).

By a poster who regularly argues for taking out student loans because you never have to repay them. It is just a tax. 😫

The not feeling wanted is having a huge effect. Motivation of workers is a large part of being a good employer. I understand that some F3 jobs are now requiring F1/F2 in the NHS as a way of helping retain good young doctors. But too little too late. The real risk is that practicing medicine in Australia is so much more rewarding that there is little incentive to return. DDs former consultants have been more than kind, using contacts overseas to help find suitable jobs, and writing excellent references. Until Britain starts prioritising those already in the country for both jobs and training, or provides help - say a common application for all trust grade jobs and then you tick the boxes, it will be hard for young doctors to feel it is worth applying for F3 jobs outside their Deanery when they know how much international competition there is likely to be. (With the strong chance that some applicants will be offering a lot of experience but willing to take an entry level job on the bottom of the pay scale.)

I wonder how much of the pay dissatisfaction comes from IMG doctors who did precisely that, moved their families to the other side of the world. And now can see less well qualified doctors earning more, have realised that what seemed like a high wage is not when faced with the UK's cost of living and realised that the chances of getting on training is vanishingly small.

PurpleFairyLights · 08/08/2025 15:59

W0tnow · 08/08/2025 13:19

How utterly depressing.

I read a post recently here on mumsnet that doctors moving to Australia should be compelled to immediately repay their student loans because why should the UK government invest in training only for them to jump ship. I really think people don’t understand that the current choice for so many is unemployment or alternative career in the UK, or doctor in Australia (or NZ, Canada etc).

They really don't understand. The problem is too many applicants. Last year 63% of applicants were IMGs.

Thankfully my son managed to get a surgical job in a tertiary hospital but will have to reapply to higher surgical training when Oriel opens for another round.

TheFancyDuck · 08/08/2025 17:03

@Needmoresleep wasn't your daughter one who didn't even apply for a job? It can hardly have come as a shock not to get one.

Heavy workloads are not an excuse for not doing research etc. She needs to think of something to write up, get her head down and write it, the way that others do. I suppose you will say 'but dyslexia ' which I'm afraid she will probably have to work on. Terrifying to think of someone actually dyslexic prescribing. Conferences are open to everyone.

Perhaps showing initiative herself rather than having her mother intervening would be more effective than 'throwing money at it' . I don't think those selecting for training posts would be any more impressed by that than the fact that some of her relations went to Oxbridge.

I hope she does well in Australia if she finds work there, but can't help feeling that maybe the time has come to give up medicine and do something else. It's been said before but it could probably do with repeating - not all junior doctors will progress. They never have.

TheFancyDuck · 08/08/2025 17:49

And it's ridiculous that you think that any employer should care about what her hobbies are. If she had fewer hobbies she might have a job.

The only things that matter are education, judgement, a good memory and the ability to diagnose correctly. Humility to know when to ask for help. Being pleasant is a bonus but definitely not essential. How on earth do you think knowing football rules or whatever it was you referenced will help her cure people? I definitely don't need doctors to be my friend, I've got plenty of friends. They just need to cure people and try not to kill them.

Needmoresleep · 08/08/2025 17:52

Interesting view. The same problem affects about half of this year's cohort of F2s. Would you also recommend that they give up?

Are you in a medical role? If so, I assume in a more populous area. You should get out more. Not a lot of research going on in more rural centres, whilst conferences tend to be in England and take time and money to get to.

Her friend did apply for a training post but did not get it. DD didn't because she was not sure of her speciality. She also wanted to fully concentrate on her job and so so had planned an F3.

As I said before DD is only aware of two who got training. Some very good candidates didn't, leaving the deanery without a pipeline of capable doctors ready to devote a career to the NHS in the area.

I dont really understand the obsession with research. Good doctors can also be measured through appraisals and references. Someone who can think on the spot, can communicate with patients.

Yes published research, even if it is a low impact, pay to publish, Chinese journal, which her erstwhile colleague spoke about, will have value. But it is not the only way of evaluating who make a valuable long term employee of the NHS. I understand that there is real frustration that being good at your job does not come into play. And that the word is already out that it is better career wise to do the minimum on the ward to ensure a full portfolio and time for multiple job applications.

What is your solution given so few UK graduates are unable to establish a career. Outsource medical education to Lagos, Sofia or Delhi? It would save the taxpayer a lot of money.

TheFancyDuck · 08/08/2025 18:42

Well we need to wait to see this year's figures, but if this year resembles the last then it really is very far from the truth to imagine that half of the cohort are being passed over. Last year 47% of the year did NOT apply for a job. Of those that applied 67% were successful. That is, if you had applied for a job you had a very good chance of getting one. Do you think people should run after them begging them to apply? It won't happen. Junior doctors are ten a penny now with the expansion of medical schools. And that's my answer to what we should do about training doctors, train fewer but better.

The sort of research she should be doing is just to be interested in something and write it up from case notes. No one is expecting her to find a cure for cancer, and they wouldn't expect that even if she was in a prestigious teaching hospital. It does sound a bit sour grapes to denigrate another young person's work, but I suppose it must be making you feel better.

The idea that someone in Wales can't travel to England for a conference is laughable, and if she really can't afford to go perhaps you should throw some money at that.

You might not understand the obsession with research, but it is important and is probably a marker of an inquiring mind. Knowing that it is important but not doing it seems wilfully stupid.

Needmoresleep · 08/08/2025 19:03

When you say "apply for a job" what are you talking about. Training or a house job.

Because of the strong international competition numbers are huge and many of the UK based applicants need experience whilst many they are up against will have that experience. Someone on one of the previous threads recently messaged me to say that her DC had just landed something a week or some before unemployment day. 2000 applicants for 9 jobs. No wonder the young medic I met recently said that finding a 12 month contract had effectively been a six month full time job on top of his normal job. And if he does not get training, and the numbers are stacked up against him, he has to do it all again.

You must be a medic! In most professions it is very normal for people in an interview to ask what you do outside work, as a way of finding out a bit more about them. Sport is DDs way of winding down. It is also a great way to make friends in a new place. Work life balance is something UK doctors preach to patients but clearly don't practice themselves. I just thought Australia's approach was interesting, with a focus on workplace experience and an interest in the whole person. The UK do it very differently. I am not convinced that UK workforce planning and their ability to ensure that they have sufficient qualified and competent doctors coming through the system, is particularly good. If you got out more it would be very evident that in some places the system is barely holding it together.

And I looked. For DD to drive from her hospital to London is almost 10 hours one way. Trains are only available for part of the journey and even then expensive. Going to a conference is a major undertaking. Very different to hopping on a bus from St Thomas'.

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 19:27

Ryanair flights are dirt cheap. You seem to want to make excuses about literally everything. Driving is an absolute red herring.

And how on earth is it relevant that various relatives 'spent time' at Oxbridge, whatever that means. She herself hasn't had the benefit of an Oxbridge education is the bottom line. She can't benefit by osmosis.

stuffedpeppers · 08/08/2025 19:45

50% of the residents in the BMA did not bother to apply for a number. IF you do not apply then you will not get a job.

Interestingly in one of our departments 3 FY3 grade level doctors pulled out last week, leaving us with gaps!

6 month jobs have been part of medical life for forever.

Working life is tough for everyone at the moment not just doctors. Commuting, applying for jobs, doing research, writing papers whilst working, studying for exams is nothing new in the medical world it ahs always been like this - are we about to see what is happening in law, where trainee solicitors are asking for easier exams because the old standards are too high.

Sevillian · 08/08/2025 20:34

stuffedpeppers I think the answer to your queston may lie in whether the parents have paid school fees (or an expensive house to get a DC into a particularly sought after state school) and have an elevated sense of entitlement on the back of their outlay.

I find the 'work life balance' plea extraordinary, when other less entitled young resident doctors simply flog themselves to manage their work, applications (and the things necessary to make a competitive application), and their social/ extra curricular lives.

This really is unattractive entitlement laid bare.

TheFancyDuck · 08/08/2025 20:42

They already do have easier exams, at non traditional medical schools. Their problems arise when they have to take difficult exams for Royal Colleges, they struggle to pass

mumsneedwine · 08/08/2025 21:03

Rough estimates that 72%+ of F2s applied for training this year. Correct figures out in October. 52% of F2s currently unemployed.
And who are 'they' @TheFancyDuck ? Because Plymouth needs AstarAA but Imperial accept AAA. Assume you mean the latter will struggle ? Highest scorers in Royal College exams last year overall were UEA graduates.
What is a 'traditional' medical school ? The UKLA will make seeing how each graduate compares so much easier. If the newer ones are struggling then the GMC needs to step in ?

ShellacofChopin · 08/08/2025 21:30

@Mumsneedwine and who are these medical schools that make offers of Bs that Sevillian was referring to but either didn't know or wasn't forthcoming about which ones she was talking about? I had a quick look at the websites of some of the newer ones but any mention of Bs seemed to be only in a contextual context, which she claimed was not what she was talking about.

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