I am not sure I agree that Teachers have absolutely exhausting jobs - much more so than most jobs - as said by man on r4 this morning

[RevolutionHere]

i am not sure what my dh, former welder would make of this statement

this is an argument regarding long summer holidays,

Some teachers work hugely hard but not all and those that don’t coast on the reputation of hard working teachers. The headteacher at my kids’ school wouldn’t last a minute at my work on failure to reply to emails alone (and in seven years I’ve only emailed him twice when my child was in hospital before anyone says I’m being an unreasonable parent).

Someone working at a festival is unlikely to be doing more than a couple of weeks and lots of people view this a fun thing to do.
Teachers have always marked exam scripts; it’s great CPD and highly informative, if poorly paid.

I did a year of substitute teaching when younger and found it mentally exhausting - I didn’t even have to do corrections or lesson plans like teachers have to do.

I have done other jobs that are more physically demanding but found teaching the hardest, I almost quit half way through the year after a difficult day. I lived with teachers when younger too and they were up all night doing lesson plans and corrections - they do huge hours outside the classroom. They also have to deal a lot with kids who have problems and many give their time freely to kids who are struggling outside of their classroom hours.

It's not as good as it used to be for cpd. Most of the moderating is done online and not face to face. You don't get the same level of interaction with your team leader as 8-10 years ago. You get a mark scheme given to you, online standardisation and off you go.

Probably not.

I have no idea though. I don't work, I'm a SAHM with two home educated kids.

I wouldn't really want them in schools let alone work in one myself.

I guess if people chose to work there they must like it?

I saw a friend today at 4pm. She has been in school all week sorting out her classroom. Writing schemes of work. Going through data. Books. Internal reports.

She isn't management. Just a subject teacher. 4 days into the holiday. Hasn't finished yet.

Yes I agree it's not as good anymore. I disagree they it isn't CPD at all though. It's just less good than it was. I still find it some of the best CPD out there! I examine every year for that reason.

They don’t get paid for them though!

Dint be ridiculous. It is only recently a degree level entry job.

Try this: is it exhausting to parent 5 year old triplets, of whom one has special needs?

Ok so now let's multiply that to 31 five year olds, of whom 4 have special needs. And you've got them for a whole day. Some of them struggle with toileting. Some of them have ADHD and/or ASD. Most of the ones with SN have no formal diagnosis. And you have to document everything. All the time.

Yes, it's exhausting. My sister is 61 and a reception teacher. She works 3 days a week because it takes her 5 days a week to do everything required of her in her job. She's crawling towards retirement.

Have you ever worked 7 night shifts in a row in a hospital as a nurse? Obviously not🤣

And please thank her from myself and others like me who have the sense to understand and feel grateful.

Even though I'm not a teacher, it doesn't take many brain cells to work out it must be one of the most exhausting but important and hopefully rewarding jobs.

I left teaching after 18 years and have moved to a company in a high pressure industry when everyone there tells me how hard they work and how stressful it is. It’s a bloody cakewalk! I cannot believe how easy work is outside of teaching! My job now is basically what I did around teaching 8:45-4:00, meetings, sending emails, writing processes, strategic planning, managing people all of which had to be done in my own time after school or during lunch breaks before, and don’t get me started on the constant noise from children and what it does to your nervous system. Teaching is the hardest job, the rest are a piece of piss no matter what anyone else tells you.

I'm still following this thread and amazed at the number of people who just can't admit how very exhausting teaching must be and have made it into a competion.

I wonder why?

And why are teachers feeling they must come and defend themselves?
It's all so wrong.

We can accept other professions are exhausting, why not teaching?
Still don't get it?

As I said before, my DS in the 70's had unrecognised difficulties. If it wasn't for two teachers giving their all to help him, he wouldn't have got anywhere and he was desperately unhappy.
In later years, had another ds with autism and the Senco and teacher made a right hash of things.

You get people making mistakes in any job.
I prefer to remember the two teachers who made such a difference.

This thread is like "my cat's blacker than yours"
Unbelievable.

Bloody teachers, marking exams in the holidays. They shouldn't be allowed.

Mind you, the kids wouldn't get their exam results then, which would be a shame.

As a side note, the vast majority is done in term time.

I think some of the exhaustion felt from teaching is because it's like being on stage every day for 7 hours, interacting with and engaging with a hugely demanding audience. That can feel quite draining, especially with challenging or aggressive children in the class. You rarely get a minute of downtime during the day. Once the children are gone you're dealing with all your emails, parent meetings, staff meetings. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy my job, but until you've done it, you can't really imagine how exhausting a 7 hour interactive performance is every day! I do know other jobs are exhausting in different ways though and that it's not a competition!

Petitchat

Those are very good questions.

I think there are several reasons, not just a single one.

I have some concerns/frustrations myself about the education system and I share many of the concerns other parents have - because I have two children (now adults) myself. But many people place the blame with teachers without understanding that we are often saying the same things ourselves and we have no control over any of it.

I'm trying to think of examples but there are so many I wouldn't even know where to start and people just hear a teacher moaning and respond with, "Yes, but the holidays," anyway. There no impetus to change things. Its easier to blame teachers.

Ultimately, the best analogy I can give is telling a builder you want them to build a 6 ft wall. You've given them the space, and told them exactly what resources they need to build the wall and exactly what you want the wall to look like - the 6ft wall version of the Taj Mahal! But you've also only provided them with three bricks, some playdoh and a plastic teaspoon with which to build it - they need bricks, mortar and tools right? Well now they've got them.

It's really obvious why they can't build a 6ft wall but you keep telling them that if they just tried a bit harder, worked a bit harder, put in more effort, stopped complaining and worked longer hours, the wall would look great.

But no matter how hard they try, they can't build a 6ft wall with three bricks, some playdoh and a plastic teaspoon and they've explained why, told you why, brought you over and shown you why. But you disagree and blame the builder for the lack of a wall because you can't afford any more bricks and the playdoh will have to. They've even told you they'd have more luck with a plastic knife but you want them to use a teaspoon.

You really know that they can't build a 6ft wall with three bricks, some playdoh and a plastic teaspoon. You're not a idiot and you know they see it too. But still you persist.

And then someone comes and knocks down the wall and you not only blame him for that but tell him the wall would be finished by now if he'd wokred hard enough and it couldn't have been knocked over. It ls his fault the playdoh didn't cement the bricks and it's his fault that three bricks cant build.a 6ft wall.

So you put him on a support plan because blaming him for the lack of a wall is easier for you than either admitting he needs more bricks and appropriate tools or providing them.

And that is one of the biggest reasons why teaching is exhausting.

It's not the children, its not the pay, it's partly the workload but it's also because a builder is never going to be able to build a 6 ft wall with three bricks, some playdoh and a plastic teaspoon no matter how many times someone tells him to do so, or questions his capabilities as a builder or takes punitive action against him. Because its just not possible to do.

But all the neighbours see is that your wall still hasn't been built and so believe that the builder is lazy and incompetent and maybe he shouldn't be a builder anymore if he's trying to build a 6ft wall with three bricks, some playdoh and a plastic teaspoon anyway. Is he an idiot? Even a 5 year old would know you can't build a 6 ft wall like that.

I'm no expert, but it strikes me that they need to reduce the admin side of teaching by about 80%. Given that most of the admin side never actually benefits the students, it seems logical to take it away.

Reduce teachers duties outside of actually teaching. More support staff for break, bus & lunchtime duties. Reduce the meeting load (officially it's only supposed to be one after school meeting a week. In reality it's more like 2 or 3).

Strip away most of the 'extra' stuff. Leave the essential bit, the actual teaching - still hard - but it's what teachers ACTULLY sign up for.

Given that UK teachers are snapped up for overseas jobs, regarded as being among the best in the world, why (radical suggestion here) does the government/department for education not trust teachers to know how to do their job? Let them actually get on with it, rather than adding millions of layers of documentation to PROVE that they're doing it properly.

It's shocking that the thing standing between our children getting a good education is too much bloody admin, extra duties, data entry and paperwork.

Nearly everyone's went to school, and this being the website it is, most posters have or had kids at school. Plus 75% of the teaching profession is female.

So everyone's got an opinion, in a way they might not have regarding how difficult the work lives of nurses, electricians, lawyers or tree surgeons are (to pick a few occupations at random).

I think younger teachers particularly are struggling for money due to the cost of housing, having student loans to pay back etc.

I visited a school friend recently. She works for a local authority in a senior, responsible job - the kind where if you get it wrong the public and media will definitely notice. I was struck by how much more control she has over her time than I do. She works mostly from home. There's a meeting space she can use if she wants. She can exercise during the day if she wants. Use he holiday allowance as she wishes.

I attended a family funeral in the final week of term, so I was off for a day unpaid. The day after it took be an hour to deal with the emails I had been sent that previous day. Luckily I could do it because the class were mostly working independently. But I wasnt actively teaching.

technology has increased teacher workload to a ridiculous extent and is largely not at all beneficial to children. I have to take a register during my 15 minute break time club. But not on the school register system, a completely separate one just for clubs. The register is purely for OFSTED to track clubs for personal development. I cannot do it where the club takes place so have to do it on paper and then log in to that system and do it later in the day, often during my lunch.

Fat chance. To afford the pay increases and associated increases in on-costs, schools are shedding support staff, not employing more of them. And the admin work is all about proving that teachers are doing what they say they are doing, because otherwise nobody believes them, and also about protecting themselves from vexatious parents. If a child so much as bumps their head gently against a toilet door and an ice pack, phone call, written explanation and head injury letter are not produced, some parents will contact the school to complain that their child was sent home complaining of a headache and saying they bumped their head, but nobody at school did anything about it, and they are horrified they were not informed of this serious incident by the teacher.

That’s a very valid point you make. A lot of people don’t understand that a lot of the things they complain about as parents , we also complain about on our own behalf or the behalf of the children we work with. We know what doesn’t work, we know what would work, we know the system is failing but no one bloody listens! Because whining and holidays!

Great analogy too.

Agree.

But schools are also shedding teachers.

Redundancies, misuse of support plans ro manage out experienced, long serving exemplary teachers who are just too expensive now...

I've been looking at teaching vacancies and where they used to he advertised as MPS - UPS, pay wise, they're now only advertised at MPS.

I'm aware of teachers who've tried to find new jobs but been told they're only paying staff up to M4 because they can't afford it.

It's harder for experienced staff to leave toxic workplaces because they're trapped due to finances becaise they'd have to take a significant pay cut to fulfil the exact same responsibilities elsewhere.

Teachers are having TLRs removed or not awarded at all for extra teaching and learning responsibilities that have now just become a normal expectation eg subject leadership.

And, if anyone challenges any of it, they end up with a target on their back and it'll be their turn next.

I was observed in a maths lesson recently and it was recorded as a concern that I hadn't used a particular concrete resource.

I was asked about it afterwards - why I hadn't used the concrete resource and had it 'expained' to me why this resource was so important.

I know why it's important.

The problem is that the school doesn't have this resource.

Two other teachers (at least) were questioned about the same thing. And said the same thing. It was moaned about in the staffroom afterwards.

The response? But you need to use X when you're teaching Y and relevant Teacher Standards were quoted.

I know! But we still don't have any!

Wow!
What an analogy! 😊

Thanks, appreciate that...