I am not sure I agree that Teachers have absolutely exhausting jobs - much more so than most jobs - as said by man on r4 this morning

[RevolutionHere]

i am not sure what my dh, former welder would make of this statement

this is an argument regarding long summer holidays,

Despite the incentive of really long holidays, teacher recruitment is in crisis because no-one wants to do it. It's just not that attractive Despite the long break. Who is going to look after/educate everyone's little darlings in the future?

Acting like martyrs and fishing for sympathy or defending ourselves against constant complaints and criticism? Trying to give people an understanding of what the job actually looks like?

As I said on a previous post, the only reason teachers talk about it so much is because people start threads like this.

I think it’s a shame that you’ve chose not to listen to all the teachers who have shared their experience with you here. I understand that some have been more defensive than others but to me that simply reflects how often poor teachers have to defend themselves to people who know nothing about the realities of the job.

You say your husband is a welder and has a tough job. Only you have said this and I happily give you the benefit of the doubt - you see what you husband does everyday. A lot of teachers have done the same for their job on here and yet you have concluded that you’re not convinced. In a way, you’ve perfectly modelled why teachers get so frustrated: they do exactly what you have done re your husband over and over and people immediately fire back with comments questioning them and then, when teachers get frustrated and defensive because they’re not being listened to, they are called rude and techy and bail out on the discussion.

If a lot of people agree on something being hard (and they actually do that thing) and you decide not to believe them, I think that is more a reflection on you than some conspiracy that all teachers have decided to exaggerate the reality of their profession.

I am sure teachers are exhausted. I am also sure it’s a stressful job. My experience with teachers and school workers though is that they genuinely act like they have the most stressful job in the entire world and therefore deserving on the 12 weeks holiday they have. While the rest of us with stressful jobs survive on 4.

Or perhaps a lot of teachers are being honest about how hard the job is and they are deserving of that holiday after the stresses of term time? They would know - they actually do the job! And perhaps it is your industry that should provide more time off if you are stressed rather than teachers who should have less holiday?

I really don’t understand this approach - loads of people doing the job tell you it’s hard and you decide not to listen? And then everyone is shocked that teachers get frustrated and shout louder about it. It’s like looking at research and just deciding, despite the evidence, that you know better.

Again, you say your job is stressful and I believe you because you do it. Why is it so hard to believe all the teachers who say it?

Then you need a much better union and legal representation because in the UK the legal minimum is 5.6 weeks.

This is interesting and reminded me of the many posts over the years of husbands working such very long hours and not being around when the children are awake, and the many other posts from women working in those types of environments, stating how much time fathers waste in the workplace in order to not have to do the grunt work of parenting. Including going to the gym in the middle of the day.

Re read my comment. I said I’m sure it is stressful! My point which you clearly missed is that they seem to ignore the huge privilege that they do have which is excessive leave!

The school holidays are a nightmare for me personally for childcare. My school teacher acquaintances, do not have this problem. They enjoy the summer with their kids and don’t seem to take notice of how hard it is for others negotiating a small amount of annual leave with childcare.

Yes, 4 weeks excluding bank holidays.

But both people were in that workplace so that’s why the accounts from women were so telling - they did the job and saw the reality. There’s not some new group of younger teacher saying ‘what’s everyone complaining about’ or an older cohort of experienced teachers saying new teachers aren’t trained in the same way or aren’t up to the job. Old and new teachers are telling you it’s hard and the retention rates/recruitment issues reflect this. But let’s still not believe teachers because… (not sure how this sentence ends to be honest!).

It's mon-fri and very sociable hours. Already I can't see how anyone would think it's more tiring than say my sister who is a nurse working a mix of day and night shifts. That's not say I want to take away anyone's holidays, all jobs have ups and downs but I do think it's absurd to say teachers couldn't cope on the same amount of annual leave as everyone else. Obviously their pay would need to then be increased a shit co tract is for that amount of time off

Lots of teachers agree it is one of the few perks of the job. Lots of teacher also use some of the holidays to work. They don’t ignore the holidays but that doesn’t mean that the term time isn’t absolutely exhausting. Both things can be true and responding to teachers with ‘yeah, but the holidays’ is like me saying to another profession ‘yeah but you can work from home’ or ‘you can go on holiday when it’s cheaper’. Those perks don’t mean the job itself isn’t really hard and really exhausting.

I totally understand the nightmare re holidays and even re the working day v school day. But I believe school term length/how schools work should be set according to child development and what’s best for kids. If we decide to cut holidays because parents can’t cover them, we’re putting societies issues onto some of the most vulnerable members. What adults need to focus on is pushing for better working conditions for parents within their industry.

Wtf??? You have completely missed the point. And i am not sure how.

op believes her husband without question. Did you even read the post I was replying to?

I voted YANBU but it’s some sort of law that you can’t say this. I’m a social worker. Same if not more stress levels, same if not more abuse, I’d argue more pressure in family safeguarding. But I don’t get 6 weeks off for summer. I frequently have to have to work bank holidays and yes sometimes Christmas Day when emergency cover is needed. And my profession is underfunded and unlike teachers not deified, but constantly bashed by the Media and society in general. So yes, when I hear teachers saying how exhausted they are etc etc it does annoy me sometimes. It’s not a race to the bottom. But if was, social workers would win.

Why are you excluding bank holidays? That is illegal for your work place to do that.

Apologies, because you replied to my post I thought you were using the analogy about teaching and saying that teachers would be exposed at some point for making up how hard the job was!

I wonder where OP would put you on the welder scale of exhaustion.

Here’s the thing , there’s not one teacher here that said their job is worse/harder than a social worker’s. So why are you taking someone’s moan about their job so personally?

Can’t speak for anyone else but myself- I deserve the long holiday and I need it. I couldn’t cope on less and I’d change jobs. Do other people deserve long holidays too? Absolutely.

Why not become a teacher then and enjoy the same “privilege “?

Teachers do recognise the privilege. Let’s face it, I wouldn’t be doing the job without the holidays and I’m sure I’m not alone.

Maybe train as a teacher then?

Yes, and there's no reason for us to think the random man on the radio doesn't think social work is more difficult than teaching. All he said was "more exhausting than most jobs". Not all.

I would say, as far as I know at least, social workers can go to the toilet when they want. They also get proper training on dealing with traumatised children and challenging families. That is in fact their main role.

In my teacher training I was never taught what to do if a seven year old told me his parent was sexually abusing him. When I was suddenly in that situation, I felt completely unequipped to handle it with the sensitivity and understanding necessary.

Like you said, it's not a race to the bottom. Teaching isn't the hardest job. It's got its perks. I would say the same about social work though. I'd guess billions of people in other parts of the globe would say we have it easy.

Builders lol no comparison. My oh is a carpenter yes it's physically demanding but absolutely not the same mentally. They can have breaks when they want. Builders are actually quite lazy teachers can't have a tea break every couple of hours, leave early on a Friday. They don't get paid £300 per day and they don't do two hours marking when they get home. In the 6 weeks hols teachers do some planning and go in to set up the classroom so it's not all a jolly. These threads are so boring from people who have 0 idea of what shit teachers put up with.

Schools are also the only agency who CANNOT “no further action” children and families. I can’t even count the number of cases where the police, social services, CAMHS and other outside agencies have been referred to and then “nfa”. - because thresholds for intervention are so high.

Schools often get the advice to support <insert entirely outside of school horrendous issue> themselves.

People working outside education have no idea about this - there’s an assumption that we can just “refer” and then get on with what is supposed to be our core purpose- education.

It’s that, for me, that is most exhausting.

And yet if we non teachers told teachers to leave, that would be outrageous according to this thread and others.