To think my neighbour is being a CF? Garden fence related.

[MavisTheMonkey]

Our neighbours to the right are the last house in the road on a corner so we are their only neighbours. They have a wall between them and the pavement of the road around the corner and we have a fence in between our gardens.
For 11 years of the 12 years we have been here a couple lived there who had been there for 40+ years. They told us that they were responsible for both the wall to the road (on the right hand side of their garden) and the fence between us (to the left hand side of their house. They always maintained the fence and replaced a number of fence panels over the years. They moved out around a year ago and a new couple moved in.

Yesterday I bumped into the new neighbour and he said “oh I’ve been meaning to talk to you about the fence. I called land registry and they think it is shared. I’ve arranged for someone to come round on Thursday so can you keep your dog inside”

When he caught me I was super stressed and in the middle of something so he said he would catch me later and I didn’t ask questions or make any comments. Later that evening I checked to see if I have a copy of my title deeds as I know these sometimes show who is responsible for each boundary but I can’t find my copies and the originals are with the mortgage company. I also looked on land registry and can’t see how they would have been able to tell him it is a shared responsibility for that boundary.

He has just knocked on my front door and said that people coming tomorrow are replacing the entire fence. Then he showed me pictures of what the new fence will look like and a quote for £2300.

At this point I said “are you thinking I should pay for some of this?” And he said “Well what do you think the split should be?”

I pointed out that I don’t believe it is a shared fence and if it is it should be a shared decision on any work, not something he presents to me the evening before the work starts. I told him to go and see if he had a copy of the title deeds and then we will take it from there but again said if he believes it is a shared boundary it was not up to him to make the decision to replace the fence.

I am now thinking even if he can prove it is a shared responsibility for the fence I’m not going to pay any of the costs as he should have discussed it with me beforehand. AIBU to take this stand or if it is proven to be a shared responsibility then should I contribute towards the cost? I have the money but that’s not the issue in my mind, however I don’t want a bad relationship with our neighbours.

my neighbour and neighbour on other side are no longer speaking because of a fence issue. He thinks posts/battens should be on her side because it’s her fence. Her attitude is I paid for the whole thing and he didn’t offer to contribute anything so it’s staying as it is. He demanded somewhat aggressively according to her that she turn it all round once the job had been done. And she refused. They have been friendly enough neighbours for 15 years but now no longer speaking. It’s a shame really.

OP
got chatting to the fence installer whilst I was out with the dog (had to keep her on a lead in the garden so she didn't wander into their garden) and he said he's installed fences for 30 years and locally all houses follow the left hand side rule, but I appreciate there is so much confusion and here say re fences

The fact the fencer has categorically stated that ‘locally all the houses follow the left hand side rule’ tells you nothing other than not to listen to a word he says.

Fences are expensive and people are foolish if they act without knowing what their actual deeds say, of course, they may say nothing at all or even contradict neighbours deeds. Take a look at GardenLaw website (as suggested by a PP) for examples of neighbour disputes that have come about by people making incorrect assumptions.

How could I say can we discuss what type of fence we get when he told me with 12 hours notice before the fencing installer was booked to turn up?! This was literally the first I had heard of it.

Well, it certainly needs a conversation first! Out of common courtesy, you don't just book a company and then rock up the night before to announce, 'Hey, we're getting the fence done and you're paying half.'

You say the fence needs doing and you think you may be partially responsible. You need to check on your responsibilities - are you, in fact, partially responsible or is your neighbour a CF? Even if you are, it still needs to be discussed before any action is taken.

A lot of people keep referring me to land registry.

I have checked (I did so the evening after he first mentioned it) and the documents available online do not provide this info. The title register refers to a schedule marked with T from the original land sale in 1930s that is not available online- the two docs I have are the only things available online. The title plan has no T marks.

My understanding is that the register is a summary of the deeds and I am assuming that the full deeds contain the schedule required, but I’m not sure how to get them.

Entirely agreed!
It’s not the expectation that I share cost that is annoying me it’s the CF way he has gone about it- deciding it needed to be done, making all the decisions, no communication, no involvement with me at all and just presented to me as a done deal with less than a days notice. I honestly can’t comprehend his thought process.

He is either incredibly arrogant, very stupid or has dishonestly decided at the last moment to try and offload costs onto me. None of those options make him look good.

And yet he was able to, apparently.

Stick to your guns.

Does your neighbour also have a dog? If he does then I would agree he is being a CF but if not do you think he’s pissed off at your lack of responsibility to keep your dog in your garden? Regardless of who should maintain the boundary (because nothing in the land registry will specify it must be a fence of a certain height or material) you have a responsibility to keep your dog contained in this instance.

Rubbish! There was literally no discussion here…the CFN made a unilateral decision and as such will need to unilaterally pay!

We can’t go around expecting others to simply hand over £1500 with 24 hours notice ffs!! Even if the fence is shared! If someone asked me for £1500 tomorrow they’d be laughed back down the drive! I don’t even have £150, never mind £1500!

Every single £ is accounted for, just to get me from one week to the next. Not everyone is lucky enough to have two wages coming in and a healthy savings account to dip into.

That’s correct. There is a register and plan which you have, and more recently practice has been for the LR to extract all relevant parts of the transfers etc onto the register.

However for a long time (at the start of compulsory registration) the register just had the basics and all the relevant documents were noted as filed, so you got a copy of each one and had to review the contents.

The first transfer will be from the builder in the 1930s and may, but does not have to do, indicate ownership of boundaries.

it’s entirely possible due to different registration dates (compulsory registration was triggered by a first sale after a specific date) that his title does have more details extracted than yours.

If you still have your legal report from when you acquired the home it should have the filed documents either included, or at least a review and summary of the contents.

However even if you own the boundary you do not usually have any obligation to fence it, or contribute. There may be an exception in more modern estates but unlikely in 1930s conveyance.

I’m sorry but I’m not sure where you get that I have a lack of responsibility for my dog?? The fence that was there until Thursday morning needed replacing at some point but was structurally fine so my dog was contained in my garden at all times.

There are so many misconceptions around fences in the UK.

99% of the time the owner of the fence is the house who last replaced it, deeds may show who the developer has chosen to give responsibility to but that doesn't mean they actually have to do anything (unless in the very small amount of cases where the deeds mention maintaining the boundary to a certain standard.)

Even if the fence was 100% yours, if you didn't want to replace it that is your right. If you wanted to replace it with a stake and some string, that is your right (although having a dog impractical).

Replacing fences ultimately comes down to a negotiation between neighbours and who wants it more. You could offer to pay something towards the fence if you want to keep relations, equally you could refuse and there is nothing he can do. He will however have full choice over how the fence looks and you may not be happy.

When I moved into my current house I replaced 2/3 sides as the fence was in a terrible state and my dog would have escaped. Both sides the neighbours had hedges infront so wouldn't have even known the fence was being changed. I didn't ask them to contribute as the fence was 100% for me (I did give them a heads up in advance). The third side is starting to fall down but both the neighbour and I have a dog and we are waiting to see who blinks first and suggests splitting the cost.

you can't own a boundary. It has no "real" existence its just the point where one plot of land ends and another begins. You can own what marks the boundary, eg fence, bit of string and two sticks or whatever the boundary marker might be.

Op, have you looked at the information on LR for the neighbours property? This may be all you need as it could show the ‘T’s’ for him/both of you.

I'm one of the lucky ones where the only fence I've responsible for is the one at the front of our house. When buying the place it was clearly stated that the neighbours on 3 sides were responsible for those fences. That said one of the neighbours has forgotten this. But then he's mid 90s and the fence is ok so that's a problem right now. Might be when someone eventually buys his property though.

I cannot believe your CF neighbour! I wouldn't pay a penny.

But you said earlier you did know how to get them but it involved paying by cheque so you wouldn’t/ couldn’t do it?

you can request a cheque book from your bank. Alternatively do you know someone else who has a chequebook who could write a cheque for you?

Why does he need to replace the fence if you're not bothered about doing so as yet.
He could build HIS fence alongside the existing one but on his boundary so nothing to do with you.
Our neighbours did this years ago as we preferred something different to their choice. Has worked fine and now we are each responsible for our own.

You made it sound like the fence was broken and you were just waiting on neighbour to fix it replace it. You do have a responsibility as a dog owner. I wasn’t suggesting you weren’t a responsible dog owner.

Either the fence is yours, theirs or joint.

If joint neither side can compel the other to pay for a replacement. Whoever wants the work doing has to pay for it.

I’d make it very clear to the people installing the fence that this was not done with any of your prior knowledge - it’s 100% neighbour. Not beyond the realms of possibility that neighbour will
oay them half and then ask you to settle the other half with the contractors directly

It sounds like he's trying to back you into a corner so that you'll just give in.

He wouldn’t be getting a penny out of me , frankly I’d pay for another fence to run alongside it on my side , at the height I wanted , before I gave him any money . Nobody has the right to spend your money .

Friend double fenced with thejr neighbour so posts when in and panels on each side of the fence so each had their own side.

I'd go the, "I thought the fence was yours to change" route but "if I have rights here, what about this fence or that one etc." (Make sure all are extremely costly) He'll change his tune quickly.