To think my neighbour is being a CF? Garden fence related.

[MavisTheMonkey]

Our neighbours to the right are the last house in the road on a corner so we are their only neighbours. They have a wall between them and the pavement of the road around the corner and we have a fence in between our gardens.
For 11 years of the 12 years we have been here a couple lived there who had been there for 40+ years. They told us that they were responsible for both the wall to the road (on the right hand side of their garden) and the fence between us (to the left hand side of their house. They always maintained the fence and replaced a number of fence panels over the years. They moved out around a year ago and a new couple moved in.

Yesterday I bumped into the new neighbour and he said “oh I’ve been meaning to talk to you about the fence. I called land registry and they think it is shared. I’ve arranged for someone to come round on Thursday so can you keep your dog inside”

When he caught me I was super stressed and in the middle of something so he said he would catch me later and I didn’t ask questions or make any comments. Later that evening I checked to see if I have a copy of my title deeds as I know these sometimes show who is responsible for each boundary but I can’t find my copies and the originals are with the mortgage company. I also looked on land registry and can’t see how they would have been able to tell him it is a shared responsibility for that boundary.

He has just knocked on my front door and said that people coming tomorrow are replacing the entire fence. Then he showed me pictures of what the new fence will look like and a quote for £2300.

At this point I said “are you thinking I should pay for some of this?” And he said “Well what do you think the split should be?”

I pointed out that I don’t believe it is a shared fence and if it is it should be a shared decision on any work, not something he presents to me the evening before the work starts. I told him to go and see if he had a copy of the title deeds and then we will take it from there but again said if he believes it is a shared boundary it was not up to him to make the decision to replace the fence.

I am now thinking even if he can prove it is a shared responsibility for the fence I’m not going to pay any of the costs as he should have discussed it with me beforehand. AIBU to take this stand or if it is proven to be a shared responsibility then should I contribute towards the cost? I have the money but that’s not the issue in my mind, however I don’t want a bad relationship with our neighbours.

Having a shared boundary does not mean that it's a shared responsibility to pay for fencing - for example, you could decide that you aren't bothered about having a fence between properties if you wished.
We live in an old terrace and it states all the walls/fencing etc is shared - but that the previous owners of our house opted to put in the fence which is on our right hand side, and in doing so, that means the owners of this house are responsible for the upkeep.

Conveyancer here. Boundary ownership is not usually defined in the Title Register or Title Plan (it can be, but it is unusual). It is usually defined in the Transfer and/or Transfer plan. When you downloaded the Title Register you will see that there are document/s referred to as ‘Copy Filed’ - this is the document/s you need to look at.

Secondly, when your neighbours sold, one of the questions on the Property Information Form asks which boundaries the sellers have maintained during their ownership (and thus assumed responsibility). If, as you say, your previous neighbours did indeed assume ownership they would have completed the form to show this and your neighbour would have had a copy.

Do you have the forms from when you moved in to your house as often there is a question about fences that the vendor answers @MavisTheMonkey

This is not on. I might have assumed responsibility 15 years ago in my new house by replacing the fence

15 years later neighbour told me he was thinking of replacing 15 panels and 10 new posts the following year. I told her I would pay half

we agreed on design, importantly no bad side gong on my side and we did it this year. Told only to pay a third in the end

do not pay him a penny

Agree.

Absolutely this.
He's a CF.
No way I would be paying half a bill presented to me the night before work begins.
He thinks you are a mug.
For 12 years you were told by the previous owners it was theirs alone to maintain.
That is what I would be telling him and he would have to prove otherwise to me.

Thank you, this is very helpful, particularly around the declaration the previous owner should have made.
On the title register I can not see anywhere that says “copy filed” so I am assuming that Land Registry doesn’t have anything beyond what I have already downloaded?!
The house was built in the 1930s and the register refers to a schedule including a plan which is not viewable via Land Registry so I know there are additional documents but I can not find them. I have checked old emails from our conveyancers but we bought in 2013 and I can’t find anything relevant.

If you want to have a good relationship with your neighbour then you shouldn't let them bully you. I think you've done the right thing. If he wants you to contribute to the cost then you also contribute to all aspects of the decision making. Although in your case it does sound like it's actually his responsibility to maintain the fence so he's gone ahead on that basis, fully expecting to pay and at the eleventh hour had an idea to try to get some money out of you.

In cases like this I often wonder if he'd behave the same way if he was dealing with a man rather than a woman.

The title plan and title register are effectively the online title deeds for registered land. Just a different name.

Keep your dog on your side of the fence was the only important bit

Ask your other neighbours, see if there’s a pattern.

I haven’t read all the posts yet but from your own initial posting I thing you have handled it pretty much perfectly.
Get all the info you need, have a think and then respond. Don’t worry about getting off on the wrong foot, you are merely responding and I have a feeling that if you don’t put a marker down (I don’t mean the fence!), I think you might have to endure many years of bullying behaviour. Good luck.

How many panels, posts and gravel boards out of interest, just seeing if the quote is a rip off. Not rtfl but I think check your property sale questions to vendor re boundary responsibilities and title deeds are £7 to down load.

You’re correct: (1) you need proof that the fence is shared, and (2) if shared you have to agree that the work end doing and presumably you can a.so get your own quotes.

Having said all that, this can be a totally pleasant process, just explain that this wasn’t the arrangement with the previous neighbours, no need to go pistols at dawn over it.

Well I would be petty and say if I’m paying half I want half of the nice panels facing my side and he can have half facing his side 😂

or is he expecting you to pay half and have the crap side of the fences

I put fencing all around both sides of my garden years ago I don’t expect my neighbours on either side to maintain it
luckily one neighbour has built a wall inside my fence and on the other side they are fine with it staying as it is

I think you had exactly the right conversation with your NDN. If it’s his fence he should pay, if it’s a joint fence he should have discussed this with you and agreed a way forward. He can’t just decide to replace it and hand you a bill.

It really does show you, here's where to look. In section A point 1 tells you that the title plan shows the boundary shown by a red line. Point 2 then tells you who the original builders were and the housing company. However there is a second paragraph to this point which will say something along the lines of:

"It is hereby declared that the fence on the northerly side of the
property belongs to the Purchasers and the fences on the southerly and
easterly sides belong to the adjoining owners and shall be repaired and
maintained accordingly."

Obviously yours might say a different side, but this gives you the detail. You are only responsible for the fence it says belongs to the purchasers. If you then look at your copy of the Title Plan there will be an arrow depicting north so you are able to work out which side of the highlighted boundary you are responsible for.

Good luck with it. It sounds to me like they are trying to pull one over on you or they would have been able to produce these documents themselves as they said they had taken the information from them. Sometimes though people just read them incorrectly, but the underhanded way they have gone about it seems suspicious to me.

I thought everyone was responsible for the fence on the left side of their garden but maybe that’s just a local thing

Being legally bound to maintain the boundary does not mean being obliged to provide a fence on that boundary. It could just be post and wire markers. If he'd like a new fence adjoining the boundary line he is welcome to do so. There are a lot of myths around boundaries and fences.

We had a new fence last year and I asked the fencers about that and he said that's the case on new build estates, but not on older detached properties like our so it seems quite arbitrary

We had this.
Don't agree to pay
He can put the new fence entirely on his property, it is then his, his responsibility to maintain.
Absolves you of all involvement.

Even if the fence is shared, you’re under no obligation to fix it.

I have a fence on my side and neighbour has their on fence on their side. Just tell him to put the fence on his property and not on yours.

If he is expecting you to contribute then of course you should have been involved in choosing the style and the company installing it! He could be paying a friend to do it with an inflated invoice for all you know! It seems a lot of money. I would imagine it’s a shared boundary to be honest but it’s his choice to install it so if it were me and I was happy with what it looks like I would pay half of what I was prepared to pay a company if that makes sense?

either it’s shared, and he can’t replace it without your agreement, or it’s his and he pays it all. There’s no scenario where he can replace it then present you with a bill.

I imagine this will be a tough conversation and it’s always a shame to fall out with neighbours but you should stand your ground I think.