To think people pleasing can be very dangerous and can’t be underestimated?

[ThoseCar]

I’ve been having a huge period of reflection on my life in the past few weeks and one of the things I’ve discovered is that people pleasing, which is the subject of so many threads on MN even if not in a ‘blatant’ way, is potentially very dangerous- it can lead to people being extremely humiliated/bullied to their lives being screwed up to what may seem like beyond repair.

it’s always early socialisation - parent figures who are the cause of this - in particular my own mum saying to me as a teen angrily:

”your father and I WANT you to make friends” - rather than letting me explore my natural tendency to be a bit of a loner - has screwed up a lot of my life - it’s led to me being taken advantage of horrifically

@noworklifebalance some therapists should not be allowed to leave their bedroom. It is not a given that someone doing this is suited, able to park all their bias and has good enough experience.

That man sounds appalling. A stay in your bedroom type.

I had a few duds who brought their issues in. I have had appalling appalling behaviour, very long standing covert manipulative cruelty hands of my mum. One therapist, also a mum with difficult teen-agers at the time was bringing this into the session in the way she was continually sympathetic to my mum. Wtf.

I have an older, world wise lady I've seen for 15 years.now ( not the same lady as above). Such an eye opener. I faced all my own problematic behaviour too and took it on because she is so good. Going low to almost NC has been the best thing for me. I had little choice once I began to see what I had blocked out forever.

I think you have tagged me by mistake

Oh dear, apologies. I've lost my glasses this morning 🤓.

Hopefully whomever posted ref their therapy experience will see it.

I think that the principle of this is fine, though maybe the example is a little off (I wouldn't consider it necessary to leave for a good few minutes, staring or not).

You're right though that sometimes it's not worth the "fight" over something you don't want much. You actually see a lot of ex-people pleasers trying to "stand on their rights" and assert themselves over really silly and petty things because they haven't learned when it's appropriate to assert yourself or when one can graciously give way.

Plenty of people know that a situation is difficult, but not see how they create the situation or play into it. Lots ot threads on mn illustrate that many people are shockingly lacking in self awareness.

It is a shame because it blocks them from realising that they can enact change or accessing therapy etc. So they are stuck.

The difficulty with people pleasing i particular, is that commonly people pleasers have been groomed out of self awareness, taught that what they want, who they are even doesn't matter, their role is to please. So expecting a high degree of attunement to self is an unreasonable expectation.

I would tell the child they could have a turn when me child had finished.

Thank you for the swing insights! I was questioning whether I should always let the cf win. I am pleased to report that my dcs are now (just about!) adults and are definitely not people pleasers!!

It is hard to be assertive whilst remaining pleasant and reasonable. I think I get hot and bothered if I have to say No to someone or stand my ground, but I do try to be polite. Some people come across as aggressive or with that “Why should I?” belligerent air.

I agree @THisbackwithavengeance there is a happy medium. I don't think its good to raise children to put themselves first. That results in a generally unpleasant society, where everyone is miserable, it has a serious knock on effect as we know from the multiple 'why is everyone so selfish now' threads here.

I think its very important to think of yourself in the context of others all the time, but to know when the time is to advocate for yourself too. It's recognising the difference that's tricky.

It's also important to understand that some people are not resentful people pleasers, they actually get something for themselves too. I like helping people, I would do more volunteering if I could, I go out of my way to help clients at work. I like to be thanked but mostly I don't mind as long as someone isn't rude because i feel ive helped make someone's day a little easier. I think I am naturally a 'nice' person because I genuinely wish people well and often have good thoughts about them. I would silently hope my friend does well in her exam or hope my neighbours new baby is settling OK. Even with strangers, I see a broken down car and i hope they are not in a rush somewhere, or I see a tired stressed looking person on the bus and I secretly wish them a relaxing evening. I don't do it for anyone else but I feel like I am sending some sort of positive energy their way and that makes me feel happy. So I guess I'm saying sometimes what seems like people pleasing can be self serving too.

Even with strangers, I see a broken down car and i hope they are not in a rush somewhere, or I see a tired stressed looking person on the bus and I secretly wish them a relaxing evening. I don't do it for anyone else but I feel like I am sending some sort of positive energy their way and that makes me feel happy. So I guess I'm saying sometimes what seems like people pleasing can be self serving too

Thats not people pleasing though - having those kind thoughts about others makes you feel good and is expressing who you naturally are at your core which is really lovely.

The whole thing about people pleasing is that it doesnt bring the person joy or pleasure- they feel resentful and that they "have" to say yes or express a certain kind of thought because if they dont they will be punished for it by others.

To me, a good example is that it's like the difference between adhering to a specific faith because you want to and it brings you peace, joy and hope in your life. OR, adhering to a faith because you've been told your whole life you'll burn in hell if you dont. Huge difference between those two motivations even if the end actions are the same.

I think young girls benefit from having strong, confident older women in their families and it's good to have friendships with older more experienced women.
These are the women who taught me really early to give no fucks, and that some of the things we think are important now, are wholly inconsequential in the grand scheme of life.

I'm trying to pass these on to my teenage daughter and I also try to surround her with these women who I believe are good role models. We also discuss some of the shitty things that happen in relationships around us and help her to understand early how lack of boundaries, self-esteem and self-respect is what leads folks to repeat shitty patterns over and over again. I also point out good happy relationships and friendships and how everyone flourishes when there is balance.

I'm trying to eradicate it before it sets in as it so easily takes root and is so hard to get out of.

Another (more prosaic!) example:

• I want to spend Sunday afternoon at the park with my son.
• My MIL wants to come over to have Sunday lunch at the pub at 3pm.

My husband will freak out knowing that both requests can't be fulfilled AND he has that admin task to complete, which he hasn't yet told anyone about.

The easy answer is MIL joins us at the park and we go to the pub for son's dinner, and husband takes out an hour to sort his stuff. But he can't compute suggesting changes to either side.

Agreed - it is the motive behind the act that can suggest whether you are doing it for ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ reasons.

As you say, people pleasers often feel frustration or resentment for agreeing to something but the driving force behind doing it despite their feelings is often fear. Usually because at some point they were told or shown that love was conditional (when it should’ve been unconditional) on certain behaviour - being passive, being obedient, being small. That’s why it’s so hard to break the cycle. For people who don’t have the ‘problem’ saying no is such a small thing to say, especially to someone you love or care about. Of course mum will understand I can’t do that or my colleague will know that I can usually help but right now I’m snowed under. But for people pleasers in the sinister sense, it feels genuinely terrifying to say no or let people down. It feels dangerous and something to avoid at all cost. They can physically feel the anxiety or are maybe feel nothing because the response is so automatic. Their inner child is still choosing love at the expense of their own feelings or needs.

We had a neighbour like this, she used to always label herself as a people pleaser afraid of confrontation. Trouble is her way was to just tell everyone what they wanted to hear and then one day when the people she regularly spoke with got together without her there and realised this was the case, she just ended up being labelled as two faced.

Watch and feel liberated by the 'We do not care' group.
https://youtube.com/shorts/3cCH2FeeApE?si=cD7fWQse0MjDBgLj

This is one of the most important things which gets missed about people pleasing.

At the most obvious level its awful that people are trained to believe their needs come last, with potentially disastrous consequences for people who are vulnerable or easily led. (And "speak only when you're spoken to?" Do people seriously still teach this?)

But people pleasing fundamentally doesn't make people like you any more. I firmly believe that most people are hard-wired to be suspicious or contemptuous of others who seem not to have any genuine convictions or opinions and who have no boundaries.

You can sense when someone is inauthentic or uncomfortable having their own views and just becomes a social anemone, changing themselves to fit the social environment they are in. It's a real turn-off.

Friendship and relationships involve give and take, compassion and empathy. But having a relationship with someone who endlessly centres others at their own expense is incredibly frustrating: it's like being with someone who isn't really there.

Only since Covid have I learned how not to be a people pleaser .probably coincided with going through menopause but things I had done prior to Covid for 30 years or more stopped . Post covid people I was doing things for didn't really bother with me to the same extent . Real eye opener for me .

I prefer, “consider everyone, respect yourself”.

Because I don’t respect everyone, and I don’t care what those people think about me. But I do consider everyone. And sometimes that looks like, “that person can’t be made happy and they are trying to steal my joy so I will avoid them”. Consideration is, for me, much more fluid than respect or pleasing.

You can be helpful and kind and still not be a ‘people pleaser’.

@Smike - I was responding that people pleasing is dangerous. There should be reciprocity in friendships. I've supported so many friends and they scattered when I went through a truly awful event. I would never have done that to them.

Same. I find it SO hard to ask for what I need and to ask for help, I've struggled so many times to do things on my own.

This is the perfect thread to write this.

I have just had a really horrible altercation with my neighbour. The main issue is we are a converted house, me top floor them bottom. It takes a lot of consideration to live in peace as the insulation is rubbish. They moved in a year ago and progressively worsened dramatically. They aren't awful people but the impact of them is unbearable. I have extreme health problems,very unwell and physically weak. Which is why this is relevant. I have a fractured spine. Neighbours don't know full story but it's obvious I'm not well.

This is where I ask myself - is this me? Am i just unreasonable? Or now I'm setting boundaries and asserting myself, is that what this new CF behaviour is 😭 how would this have played out for a person with no pleaser history...

Since moving in.....
Noise non stop with alarms going off middle of night and left ringing up to 30 minutes on 4 to 5 occasions now.
Baby crying and not seen to
I move bedroom
Woken constantly with screeching kid and mum loud gob ( sends me texts apologising I say it's ok I understand)
They get a puppy. Howling all night. By second night I text. No awareness and excuses putting it back on me in a nice way but no accountability. I show understanding yet clearly say please sort it out.
Have another alarm situations. Including one at 3am that went on for 30 minutes.
Shouting at kids and screeching kid never ends and wakes me every morning at 7. Barking dog in garden now joins in at 7.30. I accept that part is difficult and have to accept this bit so do)
Radio on all day for the dog. Dog barking or howling. I ask for the radio to please go off as it's too much hearing dance music all day.
Now accept the howling dog if left in all day on it's own because it has no radio.
There's a path through their garden I have to use to get out. It's annoying. Not my problem.
They wanted to put a gate there. Of course no problem so kids have enclosed space. It's annoying for me but I can handle that and said all ok when they moved in.
Gradually more and more cheeky and pushing my limits.
This week,a large metal piece of shit gate goes up against the gate on our communal path and I have to try lug this thing off the gate to get out.
By third time I say please move that. I can't keep lifting it seriously.
In reply I get sob story galore, reference to the fact I've already moved it myself ok and it's only temporarily so basically if they move it they get a vets bill with escape dog and can I just bare with.
I am now at point....no fucking way. Wtf . I live alone so think is this me over reacting or what the hell is this cheek.

I am in so much shock this is where I've lost my absolute mind. Said to them, not ok. Move that gate and please find something else to stop your dog escaping. I can't get out ffs. Here's another suggestion ...I gave them something to god damn try.

Go out this evening and come back to the metal piece of shit there again after this conversation. So I can't get in. Push the gate, Almost trip on that bloody metal shite.

Neighbor runs out all arsy. I've totally gone now tolerance wise and said move that fucking gate. CF proceeds to swear back at me and my' being so fucking rude sending sending her fucking rude messages.' I am burning inside. I luckily stopped talking and kept walking whilst this 25 year old speaks to me like this.

I wonder how this would have gone if I was never a nice friendly accomodating person from day one. I am also questioning my god damn sanity over this. Is this really happening. Am I the problem. Wtaf.

I don't wake anyone up. I'm noisy in the days only when I have a burst of energy. Never early, never late.

Am I losing my bloody mind or is this an absolute king sized mo fo CF.

Yes.. every time I stood up for myself or said no I was told I was selfish. So deep down I believed it and kept quiet and read books. It wasn’t until I had a baby that I fully realised I wasn’t selfish at all!

I just had a similar conversation with a colleague and then found this thread.

I'm far too nice but I was brought up by a domineering mother who hated me and absent father who wished I was a boy. I have no self esteem and it meant that I was used by friends for years, one even left me in the middle of a riot after asking me to wait with her so her mum could take us home. When her mum arrived she only had space for her and she happily hopped into the car while I walked through the chaos home.

I married the only man who was semi decent to me because I thought I had no value. His mum started sending me hatemail and making abusive calls, he never stood up for me and I still married him. Now, I'm her favourite daughter in law but she's never apologised. My job is another headache I'm too tired to think about.

I am miserable, bitter and have such a little life. I wonder who I could have been if my start in life had been different.

I realise I get really scared setting boundaries. That's what most of us people pleasers do. And when we set boundaries, people get really funny. And then it kicks off if you are trying so hard and then become reactive with these trampling types.

@Dontlletmedownbruce

I agree there is a happy medium. I don't think its good to raise children to put themselves first. That results in a generally unpleasant society, where everyone is miserable, it has a serious knock on effect as we know from the multiple 'why is everyone so selfish now' threads here.

There absolutely is a place for putting other people before yourself and as you say its not great for children to grow up believing their needs always come first. That just leads to entitled adults who can't empathise or admit others' perspectives.

The trick is equipping children with an inner radar to tell them when to take a back seat and when to stand up for yourself.

A mature and well rounded person should be able to understand when someone else's needs genuinely should take precedence: for example and older person who is tired should get first dibs on a seat, a parent who has been running themselves ragged doing domestic work should be allowed to put their feet up before being required to do more errands which the child could do for themself.

Where it gets dangerous is when children develop the sense that a particular person (it could be a parent, a certain friend) always has to get their way, regardless of the wider context or what's being asked.

That primes children for dependent and dysfunction relationships in later life where they identify a particular person to whom they always need to defer and which makes them a target for manipulation.