To think people pleasing can be very dangerous and can’t be underestimated?

[ThoseCar]

I’ve been having a huge period of reflection on my life in the past few weeks and one of the things I’ve discovered is that people pleasing, which is the subject of so many threads on MN even if not in a ‘blatant’ way, is potentially very dangerous- it can lead to people being extremely humiliated/bullied to their lives being screwed up to what may seem like beyond repair.

it’s always early socialisation - parent figures who are the cause of this - in particular my own mum saying to me as a teen angrily:

”your father and I WANT you to make friends” - rather than letting me explore my natural tendency to be a bit of a loner - has screwed up a lot of my life - it’s led to me being taken advantage of horrifically

I agree it’s SO deeply ingrained

I don't know if I'd call it very dangerous but I know what you mean. I suppose it was intended to instil kindness but actually it's not necessary to think of others before yourself to be kind and actually it's probably unnatural.

That sounds really interesting.

I think dangerous because at its very worst - sad one one could be killed -think of people ‘lured’ to their deaths.

Recent cases involve teenagers on social media being set up and ‘lured’ into fields/parks and then killed by other teenagers - been some high profile cases in the last few years

most people pleasing cases don’t end this tragically but it can in more serious cases make people feel their lives are ruined

I have suffered from this all my life.

I think it didn’t help that both my parents were functioning alcoholics.

It’s damaged my friendships so badly - I people-please my friends, feeling smaller and smaller within the relationship and then get pushed too far and then have a nuclear-level falling out, without even the ability to communicate over it.

Also, I think some people are completely fucking rude, and then realise it’s just bc they’re not servile people-pleasers (though I think I maybe either attract rude and selfish friends, or else coach them into becoming so by my people pleasing habits.

My mother, a permanently mildly depressed alcoholic, was both a people pleaser and I think had an inferiority complex (and its flip side, when drunk). I find it’s hard to separate that out from it.

It’s awful tbh. (Though it’s useful for a career in customer service.)

Yes, exactly. This can’t be said enough.

If you’re people -pleasing with the expectation that it will bring you the desired result, people being pleased with you, then disabuse yourself of that immediately.

My mum was also an alcoholic also narc so I can relate to so much of this

I have worked with ex-offenders and the luring women is a common tactic in stranger-assaults. Once I heard from them, I would have never helped a random man in the street unless I was I VERY sure it was safe.

It is so dangerous I believe it has contributed significantly to my horrendous quality of life with multiple aggressive autoimmune diseases and missing parts of my digestion.

I have a plethora of illnesses and am primarily sofa bound in my mid 40s. Years of therapy helped me realise. I took on everyone's faults and the blame for them. I did everything for others who were and are cruel and devoid of empathy to my own detriment.

The never ending state of fight or flight and never saying no meant high stress permanently and failure to adequately take care of my needs.

I'm now No Contact and pretty alone which is healthier for me.

I noticed today even my neighbour has gone mega CF and I thought, if I was a very firm non people pleaser person from the outset, would this even be happening?

There are so many willing CF type people that it's very damaging to the health of people pleasers in my opinion.

Neighbour is now put in place - again ffs- but I now realise you just can't be friends or too nice. It's not an option.

Completely agree

I've been a pushover a lot, and come across as too bloody friendly and nice - because that's the way we are taught to be, right?

It doesn't always serve you well in life to be nice, all the time

As Joy said, there are so many cheeky fuckers around it's incredible.

They sniff out niceness a mile away!!

I think it also extends beyond being vulnerable in way you describe. Suppressing your own emotions can have a huge impact on your mental health - it can lead to burn out after ‘masking’ for so long, cause anxiety (because you’re hyper vigilant to people around you), or it can lead to depression or feeling ‘nothing’ at all - at which point you wonder are you really living or just going through the motions. It can also lead to addiction issues and Gabor Mate discusses the interesting connection with chronic disease and people pleasing. It is really really dangerous in its most potent form.

I also need to challenge the narrative that women only suffer from it. As someone who has witnessed a male loved one dealing with this and done a lot of reading up to understand what’s going on, men are also deeply affected by this.

Yes, this, so much!

Yes this and as I can’t edit this post -

another way in which selfish is slightly different from simple not caring about what other people think is that ‘not caring about what other people think’ involves your decisions about YOUR OWN LIFE - so. For instance refusing a family wedding invitation even though other family members want you to go. and not as such an ‘identifiable act that inconveniences others’ like eating someone’s sweets they’ve saved for a trip cos you think the person can easily replace them

I hope you enjoy the ep! I don’t always enjoy her eps but the one about parents was like it was aimed directly at me!

The book Running on Empty by Jonice Webb PhD is also very helpful and I think it now has a workbook you can fill in as you read.

I agree. I married a violent abuser as I felt bad upsetting him. Completely crazy and dangerous.

What we should say is:

'Be kind but respect yourself'.

Unfortunately be kind is now a weasel phrase, so I prefer

'Respect everyone equally, including yourself'.

This actually reflects the law whilst safeguards.

100% agree.

Ah I did enjoy it ! She’s very engaging !

Thanks for the further heads up

No, not specifically a middle class thing.
I am working class, grew up in a predominantly working class community and have subsequently meandered through a range of social contexts over the course of my five decades -I see the impact of this socialisation run deep in women of all backgrounds and creeds.

In my own life, it has brought me down the cul-de-sac of wasting 20 years in an impossible relationship (resonating with MrsTerryPratchet's post upthread) and am now trying to untangle myself.

I think it’s important to acknowledge that people pleasers are often victims of childhood emotional abuse. An often minimised form of abuse compared to horrendous crimes against children, however, it has been described by experts as death by a thousand cuts - each incident can be seemingly small but for a child growing up in this environment, it shapes their whole sense of self - each little comment, argument or moment where they weren’t even ‘seen’ .

Emotional abuse in childhood can be incredibly hard to heal from and I don’t think it’s fair to say ‘you’re an adult now, own it and stop looking back’. This form of trauma is incredibly complex and is literally how your whole identity was created so you can’t just close that chapter because the impact of those early years has created who you are today. You need empathy, support and often a therapist specialising in this stuff to find who you ‘are’ once you strip away all the history. For a lot of people, they suddenly realise there is nothing to them if they’re not validated by others and that’s a terrifying realisation.

Hmm. I’m in my 50s and I get that we as women are programmed to put others - namely men - first.

But is it really a choice between being a people pleasing doormat and someone who wouldn’t piss on others if they were on fire?

Surely there’s a happy medium.

I'm sure you're right, @JoyDivision79 , and that constant 'fight or flight' is so exhausting...

Well done for seeing off your GF neighbour, but don't you find it's so psychologically (and thus physically) wearing? It's great to get feistier as we get older, and I stand up for myself so much more now, but it can still take a lot out of me because it's going against decades of conditioning - like lifting a heavy weight when you don't normally do that sort of thing.

The CFs just thrive on the conflict because that's how they live every day... (hell mend them!)

CF neighbour. I don't know if they're Gluten Free or not... 😁

I agree completely.
I’ve had conversations with dd about always putting themselves first. Never feeling obliged to put up with shitty behaviour because that’s what females are supposed to do.
Dd is a manager and has quite frequently told men to STFU when she is leading a team meeting. She has snapped would you speak to Ian like that? No thought not, so don’t do it to me. She has earned respect and now non of her team speak down to her. It’s pathetic that she had to do this though.
Likewise we have had conversation about older men insisting on sitting next to her on almost empty buses. She has told them no, she will not move her belongings so they can sit rubbing up to her. Fuck that.
I’m menopausal and don’t engage with any random stranger just for their benefit. Don’t get me wrong, if a stranger speaks to me I will reply but in the words of Pink, I’m not her for anybody’s entertainment.