Constance Marten case — I feel the police have some responsibility too

[Siff]

I know Constance Marten and her partner made dangerous and illegal choices, and I’m not excusing that — a baby died and that’s heartbreaking. But I can’t stop thinking about the way the case was handled and whether the police have some responsibility in how things unfolded.

As a mum of four who’s struggled mentally after birth, I keep thinking: if I had just given birth, was vulnerable, and felt like the whole world was hunting me down — would I have thought clearly? Probably not. The media coverage was intense, and the police were everywhere. The pressure must have been overwhelming.

I honestly believe the fear created by the police operation pushed them into making more and more desperate and risky decisions to stay hidden. It wasn’t just a search — it felt like a witch hunt. No safeguarding, no attempt to reach her as a vulnerable mother, just a hard push to capture and punish.

I think that approach had consequences. The police must take some responsibility for creating the kind of fear and pressure that led to this tragedy. The way they went about it likely made things worse — not better — for the baby.

It’s easy to say she was selfish or unstable, but mental health in the postnatal period is fragile. People don’t always think rationally when terrified. I just wish there had been more humanity in how it was all handled.
Anyone else feel the same?

Well indeed, yes.

But in cases where she’s wanting to put them first but barriers are in the way, or she is putting them first but is not believed and the overriding opinion is that she will return to an abusive partner then those cases perhaps need another look.

Can you explain whatcyou mean in thr first paragraph?

Of course the pro adoption lobby will claim it isn’t the default option, and those against forced adoption will state that it is.
The truth is betwixt and between the two dogmatic beliefs on either side I suspect.

@kidscanwatchcbeebies its not a matter to being for or against adoption. Legally you can’t remove a child without showing clear evidence that there is no other way to provide safe care. That means you need to clearly evidence the risk to the child along with all the measures that have been taken to offer support and how these supports have failed.

The child is then taken into care and efforts are made to support the parent and improve their parenting capacity. The vast majority of children taken into care are returned to their parents.

For a permanence decision, eg adoption or permanent foster care, you need to evidence that efforts to improve parenting capacity have failed and that the parents are unlikely to be able to care safely in the foreseeable future.

So regardless of whether I’m pro adoption or not, I have to have a huge swathe of evidence from multiple sources to argue a child should be freed for adoption. It’s not a quick process or something done on a whim.

The like of @Siff seem unable to grasp is that some people, whatever help and support they are given, are unable and/or unwilling to prioritise the needs of their children over their own wants and wishes. Sometimes there is a sad backstory of having a dreadful upbringing themselves that makes it more explicable, sometimes there are MH issues, sometimes there is nothing that adequately explains it. This case is an extreme and tragic example of course but the case files of every child protection team bear terrible witness to the fact that not everyone who produces a child can parent adequately and it is always the children who suffer. They are not possessions, they are autonomous human beings and their wellbeing comes before the feelings of their parents.

At least the 4 who were removed are still alive, unlike that poor baby.

Pro adoption lobby?? What the fuck is that? Forced adoption only happens if all all other avenues to protect vulnerable children have been exhausted.
Now, in Scotland they are putting "scaffolding" around families to try and keep shitty, dysfunctional and selfish parents with their poor children.
I find that way more disturbing than "forced adoption"

Err... seriously??

well of course the blame for this falls on the police and not the scumbag she was with or her irresponsible choices in life..........

when you read how they behaved with one another in court - the level of compulsive obsession with and co-dependency on each other - it's exactly the kind of psychological pairing that's reminiscent of Fred and Rose, or Ian and Myra.

Yes, sometimes human monsters find each other and form unholy unions. Women can be monsters too, for all those seeking to excuse CM.

It’s worth considering at least how it’s approached in other European countries. I don’t have a dog in this race, but I do think that it is worth some thought.

I’ve answered ‘what the fuck’ the ‘pro adoption lobby’ is - the belief that adoption is always right regardless of the specifics of each case. The same dogmatic view can apply in reverse: the belief that adoption is always a wrong act. Both positions are problematic.

It is staggering to me the excuses that will be made to deny that some women can be shit parents. That getting pregnant and giving birth does not mean someone will be a good parent and that it doesn’t buy them a get out of jail card - literally in this case - when they show repeatedly that they are incompetent at best and purposefully dangerous and neglectful at worst.

I think some women genuinely believe that when a woman gives birth, the resulting child is essentially her property. I still remember the excuses people made on social media for the mothers of Asiah Kudi, Logan Mwangi, and the Philpott children. People were tying themselves in knots trying to justify their actions.

If Constance Marten had abducted another woman's baby, killed her through neglect, dumped her body in a bag, and then stood in the dock blowing kisses to her co-defendant... I really don't believe there'd be as much sympathy for her.

We were positive about it. It worked well for several years, with two letterbox contacts and one direct contact a year. Im adopted and I wanted my adopted children to know about their birth family.
When the contact stopped it did traumatise my child and we have reflected whether contact was the right thing to do. However, we can show our ( now adult) child the photos and letters and they know that birthmum did want to see them. They also can see why they were adopted as birthmum will always put partner's wishes first.

and my general observation of this (which is based in actual experience) is that the authorities give too much credence to how the mother is feeling rather than the protection of a child. Preventing the whole sad business happening again in the next generation of children who have experienced damage and neglect in childhood.

Really good article in the Telegraph. Clearly says her family offered to buy her a house and hire help for her to look after the children. Also that Gordon pushed her out of a window 4 months pregnant... what a total bastard.

I wondered if the children will ever find out who they are...

Did you watch the footage of their arrest, when being asked about the baby the man just kept demanding his food back - no emotions regarding the baby. She looked numb and confused.

Personally I think her partner is dangerous (previous rape convictions and has beaten his partner badly) and should be in prison for a long time but I think she, as an abused woman, has gone a bit numb and withdrawn into herself and also with postpartum hormones was not thinking clearly. I feel a mental health facility would be better than prison for her as her actions were due yo being a victim herself and poor mental health. I don’t think the police are to blame with how they broadcast the pictures of the couple but I think when he beat her and the kids were removed from their care he should have returned to prison and she should have gotten help at that point. By leaving them together this whole mess occurred.

@eqpi4t2hbsnktd are you having a laugh or just baiting for attention? You might want to think about how poor your real life is that getting attention on a thread about a newborn baby that was discarded like rubbish is how you get your jollies.

Your repeated posts show that you definitely have a dog in the race. You are chewing over the same bone in each post.

Exactly my thoughts. I’m a retired ex nurse and I’ve worked in Gynaecology and also with Post Natal women. I don’t think the police handled this very sensitively and I hope some lessons will be learnt but I somehow doubt it

Interesting question. I think that on balance the police probably did the right thing. If they'd been spotted by a member of the public earlier the baby could have been saved.
The whole case is very sad. Unfortunately I believe that Constance has Paranoid Personality Disorder (it's a complex disorder characterized by mistrust of people, lack of empathy/distance emotions, low self esteem). People with it tend to have experienced trauma. They develop it in late teens early twenties and it gets progressively worse. People with it usually cut themselves off from family and friends, won't engage with authorities easily. It's one of the hardest conditions to treat. It's extremely hard to help someone with it. Unfortunately, in order to cope, many turn to drink and or drugs too.

I have a sister with it and it is just really sad. Constance ticks a lot of the boxes for me.
Whilst not condoning what Gordon did as a teenager, one does have to wonder what led to his actions and whether a 40 year sentence (of which he served 20 years) was appropriate for a 14 year old child. His background also wasn't stable.
I thoroughly agree with the verdict. Their actions led to the death of their baby. However, it does raise the issue of responsibility. How much control did they have over their own very flawed decision making. It's very easy to judge them against the standards of normal people. They clearly weren't insane. However, neither were they fully sane. I think that the sentencing should reflect that.
I do actually feel sorry a bit for the fact that they will now be separated. However, hopefully it will be for their own good. And I do think that they deserve time behind bars. The reality is however, is that no one would choose to live like that and that this is a very complex case.

Well I was under the impression that it was because she had a violent partner who pushed her out of a window whilst pregnant, tried to stop paramedics helping her and assaulted police officers in hospital after she gave birth.

Also that she had tried to live in a tent with a previous newborn, been uncooperative with all attempts to help her and often didn't even bother to turn up for scheduled visits with her existing children.

But what's your theory?

Some scum should never have access to or power over children. It's not a grey area, some people are so horrific that they can never be allowed to keep a child.

Frankly, I would advocate for forced sterilisation of the mother or father after the second child is removed.

Some parents are incapable of putting their children's needs first the kids safety is compromised because of this children need to be put into care this is first and foremost for childrens safety. If a parent can't look after their child then what do you think should happen ? Services are available for parents who are under social services the parents need to engage through you can't force them to be better or sometimes good enough parents.

And neither lobby has any influence over the complex legal process involved in removing a child from parents nor the process of freeing them for adoption.

Jesus the police really can't do right for doing wrong in some people's eyes can they.

And all the vulnerabilities and post partim issues (of which she was diagnosed with many) was a failing of social care, not the police. Maybe if THEY'D done their job properly in the first place none of this would have happened.

Apart from the very detailed information in this BBC report 🙄

BBC article on background to case

This article was published yesterday, and perhaps @Siff should have read it before starting this thread.

Nope.

Some people on this thread are genuinely unhinged.