Parents choosing not to vaccinate their children

[MidnightPatrol]

A child has died in Liverpool as part of an outbreak of measles. 17 are currently hospitalised with it in the city, as part of a wider outbreak.

73% of children in Liverpool are vaccinated against measles - vs an England average of 84%.

A rate of 95% immunisation is required for herd immunity. No child in the UK needs to be getting measles - we can vaccinate against it.

In Liverpool, there is a risk of a widespread measles outbreak due to this low rate of immunisation - it is very infectious, so the risk to the population is significant.

If you are a parent that doesn’t get your child vaccinated, why?

Should the government not be using further incentives to encourage people to take up vaccination - are a third of Liverpudlians really against vaccinating their children?

Should non-vaccinated children be limited from accessing nursery or schools (as in other countries)?

As you are blinkered against the risk of brain damage to innocent babies and children.

Blinkered.

We can all play this silly game.

We'll have to agree to disagree....

As someone who lives in, but isn’t from, Liverpool (they prefer to be called scousers, not Liverpudlians) it’s a place that is very different socially to many others. There’s an inherent distrust of government, media etc (think Hillsborough, “managed decline” etc) and that causes (IMO) many social issues that result in people often choosing to be different to the rest of the country. In some situations I understand and agree (eg I know a couple of families that most people at Hillsborough) with that distrust. This isn’t one of those situations though. Having some state of the art medical facilities like Alder Hey here also gives a false sense of security. It’s far more complex here than just people thinking their child might get some sort of damage from a vaccine.

Also…it’s far close to a quarter than a third.

Have you read my posts commenting where I say exactly the opposite?..
No, thought not

Nobody is blinkered. We all know vaccines can, in rare cases, cause serious damage. The point is the risk is less than not vaccinating and catching the disease.
I have every sympathy with the parents of vaccine damaged children, and with the children. It still doesn’t mean not vaccinating is a rational or sensible decision for everyone else.

All 3 of mine including the youngest he’s 2 had every jab that would protect them from illnesses. I draw the line at flu and Covid as these do not vaccinate just reduce symptoms, my reasoning for the others is that the slight discomfort and mild suffering of vaccination pales in comparison to the effects of the diseases. I worried with every one especially MMR and I do wonder why they all get grouped together but I’d still not chance any of them catching them. Having said that I was urged several times throughout my last pregnancy to get the flu and Covid jabs and I think a general mistrust of them impacts the other definite life saving jabs

Nobody is blinkered. We all know vaccines can, in rare cases, cause serious damage. The point is the risk is less than not vaccinating and catching the disease. I have every sympathy with the parents of vaccine damaged children, and with the children. It still doesn’t mean not vaccinating is a rational or sensible decision for everyone else.

Anyone who has passed GCSE maths would understand this ^^ very simple explanation.

I’m from Liverpool and I know one anti vaxxer.

My children are all vaccinated but I have to say my gp surgery were crap about appointments for it. My youngest was born in lockdown and the GP surgery was nearly 2 years before they went back to business as usual. You couldn’t get an answer from them and you weren’t allowed to go into the reception area. I was getting letters from the health visiting service saying she was due to be vaccinated but I couldn’t actually get an appointment and I was panicking about her not having them on time. In the end I had to ring my health visitor and ask her to ring the gp to find out what was going on. I can imagine less neurotic parents might have just not bothered. Not saying that’s right but not everyone with children really understands what they need. Sad but true. It’ll be a combination of pig ignorance/or can’t be arsed.

Using the same risk analogy that anti vaxxers use, do they never cross the road in case they get knocked down by a car, never drive a car in case they have a car accident, never eat shellfish in case they get food poisoning? I could go on.

You see this is the point
i had utmost understanding for those who were pregnant when due the covid jab, or with nuanced medical conditions or concerns. Or for younger generations where the benefits were less clear cut

thats why it has to be about education and support, before the stick

but fir some vaccines in particular the case is very clear. Again completely not ignoring that serious issues do occur, but rarely and the risks from outbreaks far exceed them

You see this is the point
i had utmost understanding for those who were pregnant when due the covid jab, or with nuanced medical conditions or concerns. Or for younger generations where the benefits were less clear cut

thats why it has to be about education and support, before the stick

but fir some vaccines in particular the case is very clear. Again completely not ignoring that serious issues do occur, but rarely and the risks from outbreaks far exceed them

As should be the case in the U.K.

It’s utterly horrifying how parents get away with not vaccinating. The most thick people on the planet. I can’t believe they would happily put their own children at risk by leaving them exposed to such dangerous diseases.

@msddxx you say anti vaxxers are "The most thick people on the planet" but you want to condemn their children to being denied an education, stuck at home in that very echo chamber? Education isn't a favour to the parent; it is the human right of the child.

Sorry I also disagree with mandatory they did that to loads of ppl with Covid sure didn’t Australia refuse to allow Novak to play? I don’t understand why that jab was insisted upon but yet none of these vaccines like MMR are deemed as important by our government? Whether it be true or not the recent ‘vaccines’ and peoples distrust of them, their effectiveness and the issues they’ve caused afterwards, are bound to have a knock on effect to the others especially when people so publicly ie media discuss complications caused by them. Now personally I know ppl who’ve suffered from flu and covid jabs. I don’t know anyone who has actually had an issue after say MMR, other than a high temp for a few days in the kids. Plus a lot of people do understand hers immunity and think to themselves well I don’t have to chance my child cos everyone else is getting it for theirs. I wouldn’t necessarily jump to insulting their intelligence

Should say herd immunity lol auto correct!

What about the human right not to be exposed to potentially deadly illnesses of the children who are immunocompromised? Who couldn't have the vaccine for some other reason, such as allergy? Who had and lost immunity? For whom the vaccination just did not take? The children who depend on herd immunity.
Why should they be put at risk?

Not forgetting the fact that the more a disease circulates the more chance for mutation. If a mutation occurs there's a possibility that no one's vaccination will be adequate, and we'll be back to 1000+ dead per year because of measles.

If access to schools etc were to be denied to antivaxxers it is not only to protect the above children, but to act as an incentive and encouragement to the non-vaxxed, not as a punishment.

I think it should be seen an child endangerment, deliberately not getting medical treatment for a child is a crime and I see vaccinations as a medical treatment that prevent children dying, I don't know why anyone would risk their children because of paranoia about a vaccine that has saved so many lives, even if I believed the things they do such as "it causes autism" something I've heard a lot, I'd rather my child be autistic than dead from a preventable disease

The trouble with this argument is that experts can and do get it wrong. And as another poster said, they treat you like an idiot while they're telling you it's safe and won't you just listen to them because they're clever.

I will always champion vaccination, but I can see why people might be hesitant. Combatting antivaxxing is not going to happen by continuing to just belittle people for not wanting to blindly accept experts.

People will believe what tiktok is saying until they see the devastation caused by not vaccinating. Unfortunately they have already probably seen many instances where devastation was caused by experts (thalodamide, statins, Vioxx, personal experience of misdiagnosis or ineffective treatment) and those are probably more prevalent for them currently.

Why do the human rights of unvaccinated children come before the human rights of medically vulnerable children who deserve to be educated without the risk to their health as a result of unvaccinated children?

The parents who are anti vaccination would soon change their mind if their child could not fly until vaccinated. I doubt many don't have their week or more abroad each summer.

Excluding children from school for their vax status should be an absolute last resort.

As I mentioned much further up the thread, the Government haven't tried hard enough to encourage vaccination through more conservative methods, starting with more availability of appointments/vaccine formats, all the way through to paying parents for completion of a vax schedule.

Paying people to participate in putting the DC health first, that's a crazy idea.

We've lost common sense when the government is a nanny state.

There needs to be more focus on the benefits, and the results of not vaccinating.

I disagree with paying parents as that's a bit weird, the type of parents who would be encouraged by money in the decision are disgusting.

Children should be excluded from school without vaccinations, my DS has to have hib and other vaccinations every 5 years, he is currently taking an antibiotic daily to support his Immune system from repeated illness from trying to attend school.

Money talks, and it is a language everyone understands. I'd rather give £30, or £300, to a feckless parent who hasn't been motivated enough to take their kid to a vaccination appointment than exclude that same kid from education.

Previous research has shown that financial incentives in areas with low rates of breastfeeding can increase the number of babies being breastfed. The 2018 NOSH trial in South Yorkshire showed that breastfeeding incentives (I think it was a £30 voucher) had a significant effect on breastfeeding continuation rates at six to eight weeks.

Tbh I am really shocked that people would willingly force unvaccinated children out of society, rather than explore every avenue to increase vax rates to the c. 95% needed for herd immunity. Way to disenfranchise those children and young people even further and create even more distrust in things seen as government-adjacent, like healthcare.

I would rather live in a nanny state than a two tier society.

And obviously there are massive ethical issues if the unvaccinated make life less safe for clinically vulnerable people. We saw that in 2020, there are no simple answers.

DF is deciding about this now. Her DS has had mumps and isn’t going to be pregnant so rubella not needed. He has had bad reactions and she wants him to just have a measles jab but it’s all 3 or nothing.

This is where the argument falls apart for me - any side that begins attacking innocent parties in this way has lost the moral high ground.