Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

[coffeeandmycats]

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one for biological women, one for men, signs on the door. Never had any trouble. Until today.
A regular female customer comes up looking pretty upset, says there’s a man in the women’s loo. I go in to check. At first it sort of looked okay, hair, maybe a trans woman? But then I heard a deep voice, saw stubble and a broad build, a wig that looked like a last-minute costume. It was clearly a bloke who didn’t pass. Not even close.
I said politely, this is the women’s loo, please leave. He stared at me and said flat out, “I was born female.” Not I identify as a woman, he literally claimed he was biologically female. I asked him to go and he refused.
So I rang 101, didn’t want drama and wasn’t sure what rights we had as shop owners. The police said we can’t challenge how someone describes themselves. If he says he was born female, that’s it. We’re not allowed to question it based on how he looks. And since no laws were broken, they won’t come unless he’s being abusive or refusing to follow reasonable requests after shouting multiple times.
They also confirmed that the new Supreme Court judgment about women-only spaces is civil law, not criminal. That means even though legally women are defined by birth, you still can’t challenge someone in the moment just because they say they’re female.
I looked into it after, and yep, the Supreme Court (in For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers) ruled that “woman” in the Equality Act 2010 means biologically female. But that applies to protecting women-only spaces under civil law. It doesn’t let us stop someone on the spot from walking into the wrong loo. The police still can’t act if someone says they’re female, even if it’s clearly false.
This bloke walked into the women’s loo, lied about being born female, made women uncomfortable, and we’ve got no legal leg to stand on to stop him. Women customers left feeling unsafe.
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Sit back and let it happen because the law only kicks in later on? Are we just meant to trust someone who’s lying about their sex to decide what sexed spaces they can use?
It feels like women’s rights are just words, no power in real life. Anyone else run into this mess in their business? I'm nearly losing my mind over how absurd this is.

Anyone who claims otherwise or more than this is adding their own creative license to the interpretation of the judgement. This is simply what it said.

Right but the OP clearly says this man's sex wasn't even a little bit ambiguous.

To the people who are suggesting codes on doors or keys, how would this work exactly? If someone states they are biologically born female do I hand them over the key even if they are (almost certainly) a trans woman? this is the part I don't get. Because it seems to be illegal for me to tell a trans women they are a trans women and not a biological women based off of the law.
Also to the people suggesting I re do the toilets, this is something I would have to discuss with the building owners as we rent the building unfortunately.

can anyone clarify the above? these are the bits that are getting to me most.

You were being ridiculous. So what. Many cafes just have one loo. I wouldn't
want to use a cafe which had such an extreme reaction to shock horror man in womans loo. Get a grip. Calling the police! They've more important things to do than investigate this nonsense.

Do tell us precisely which statute covers this. Because this does not come within current definitions of harassment or breach of the peace.

Yes testosterone is powerful stuff. So much so that a man who has gone through normal puberty is pretty easily recognised as male. You can't row back on those changes.

But some transmen superficially pass much better than transwomen do because of this.

A man who is asked to leave the premises because he uses the female toilets could not sue you for discrimination as it is not discrimination to excludes males, however they identify, from female toilets.

As much as it galls me to say so, the easiest option would be to have accessible non gendered loos with sinks.

Cuts out any and all manner of issues, especially in your location.

I've used a cubicle in the men's toilets on many occasion in pubs and clubs, when there's been a massive queue for the women's.

None of them have ever complained.

Because it seems to be illegal for me to tell a trans women they are a trans women and not a biological women based off of the law.

It's not illegal, there's no law that says its illegal to call a man a man.

If toilets are accessed with a key or code handed out by the proprietor, rather than customers having to work out for themselves where they're supposed to go, do they legally need to be labelled at all? ( other than perhaps "Toilet" so that people know they've got the right door).

If not, maybe you could just have Toilet 1 and Toilet 2 and use your discretion about which key you issue to whom.
But I'm not a lawyer, so best to check with one.

I used to work in a pub, and we had a regular who was blind. He had a spot on the bar that was easy for him to navigate to from the entrance, and it happened to be adjacent to the door to the ladies which he used for his calls of nature. Female regulars would know not to go in if he was missing from the bar, but now and again, a visiting customer would run screaming from the toilet 😂

I believe that it isn't against the law to use the "wrong" sex toilet. I'm happy to be corrected if someone can point to some legislation, there is legislation that workplaces must have single sex toilets, but I don't think that there are any laws about which toilet you use.

Certainly, the Supreme Court ruling only applies to the 2010 Equality Act; however, the Act does address discrimination, so I can see that the Supreme Court ruling could be read to suggest that employers should provide toilets for trans people based on their birth. Somewhere, a load of barristers are going to make a lot of money out of this!

You are not a threat to them. Think about it.

Expensive option for OP though having to convert existing toilets into single user toilets and also likely to reduce toilet provision as the single user toilets take up more space than a cubicle in communal toilets

Did the man do anything wrong other than use the wrong toilet? Was the woman upset because he did something or just simply because she could tell he wasnt a biological woman?

Me too.

Why the heck is this imaginary scenario a problem?

Doesn't matter. She's allowed to be uncomfortable with a man in what she expected to be a woman only space. He should not have been there.

Also, never any trouble other than today according to OP. Bit odd to come on here and post a rant about something that's only happened once.

And it happened today at work but then later on she says she isnt at work today 🤔

@coffeeandmycats you had a transwoman (a man) in your single sex female space. You can not allow that. If you do you are breaking the law and being discriminatory, directly against all other men by excluding them and indirectly against women who require a single sex space. You need decent legal advice on how to handle this situation. It isn't just the transwoman who could take you to court if you get things wrong.

Quite honestly anyone who claims to be a biological woman is suspect, it's the new go to claim for transwomen (see IW, BU and who's that cyclist who keeps name changing)

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I think all places that currently have separate male and female loos could/should rejig things to have individual loos of disabled standard. Costs a lot and a bit of an investment for sure though. Solves the problem I'd say, although some argue that individual cubicles with floor to ceiling walls are dangerous if someone gets ill in there. But what happens if a disabled person falls ill, there is an emergency cord. All individual cubicles could have them surely?

Imagine that anyone male, female, disabled, with babies can use any loo of their choosing, they are private for each individual and include disabled people which I think is being a bit neglected due to the emphasis on sex segregation.

Lol