Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

[coffeeandmycats]

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one for biological women, one for men, signs on the door. Never had any trouble. Until today.
A regular female customer comes up looking pretty upset, says there’s a man in the women’s loo. I go in to check. At first it sort of looked okay, hair, maybe a trans woman? But then I heard a deep voice, saw stubble and a broad build, a wig that looked like a last-minute costume. It was clearly a bloke who didn’t pass. Not even close.
I said politely, this is the women’s loo, please leave. He stared at me and said flat out, “I was born female.” Not I identify as a woman, he literally claimed he was biologically female. I asked him to go and he refused.
So I rang 101, didn’t want drama and wasn’t sure what rights we had as shop owners. The police said we can’t challenge how someone describes themselves. If he says he was born female, that’s it. We’re not allowed to question it based on how he looks. And since no laws were broken, they won’t come unless he’s being abusive or refusing to follow reasonable requests after shouting multiple times.
They also confirmed that the new Supreme Court judgment about women-only spaces is civil law, not criminal. That means even though legally women are defined by birth, you still can’t challenge someone in the moment just because they say they’re female.
I looked into it after, and yep, the Supreme Court (in For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers) ruled that “woman” in the Equality Act 2010 means biologically female. But that applies to protecting women-only spaces under civil law. It doesn’t let us stop someone on the spot from walking into the wrong loo. The police still can’t act if someone says they’re female, even if it’s clearly false.
This bloke walked into the women’s loo, lied about being born female, made women uncomfortable, and we’ve got no legal leg to stand on to stop him. Women customers left feeling unsafe.
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Sit back and let it happen because the law only kicks in later on? Are we just meant to trust someone who’s lying about their sex to decide what sexed spaces they can use?
It feels like women’s rights are just words, no power in real life. Anyone else run into this mess in their business? I'm nearly losing my mind over how absurd this is.

Please post a citation for this claim. The evidence at best shows there is no difference.

Based on my personal experience. That’s all any of us have.

I'm very sorry that happened to you. There is and seems to have always been a huge problem with men''s attitudes to women and to our bodies.

We, as women, are the half of humanity that has been abused, exploited and marginalised because of our bodies. And until thats stops happening we need to be able to say very very clearly what happens to us because of our bodies and exactly who it is that is doing it.

This is why is it so important that we do not allow lauadble sympathy for trans people to take away our rights and our language. And if trans women cannot respect that fundamental need of women they have no right to expect any reciprocal respect from us.

they are wrong. Very happy to say it. Your body is you, it’s not possible to be born into the “wrong” one.

But what's that got to do with their sex?

They were born male. They know that. They have not changed sex. So their sex remains male.

No, some of us look at the evidence. Weren’t you suggesting earlier that’s what public bodies should do?

We don't base laws on your personal experience though. We need facts, data, logical, reason.

Well yes, in terms of public policy.

Personally, it’s quite different.

yes, obviously you’re entitled to believe and support who you like. Expect me to have an issue with men being told that they can use women’s spaces though. You don’t have the right to override the consent of other women based on your ideas about “trans”.

Ok, goodnight all.

Cant believe point scoring matters more to some of you than a little girl being sexually abused by two heterosexual males.

Look back at your post that Keating was replying to, and stop being so disingenuous. The thing being discussed? Public policy.

But again, believing your body should have been different is not the same thing as it actually being different.

Women's rights and protections don't exist to be a handy way of rubber stamping womanhood, they exist in response to the risks, inequalities and challenges faced by people with female bodies.

Trans women don't have the same challenges, and in some cases even experience as positive and validating things that women experience as belittling and devaluing.

It really is not fair to expect women to give up things that only exist in the first place because we as female-bodied people need them out of some misplaced empathy for trans women who have never had the type of body that would make this things needed.

What about all the women who need their intimate spaces to be single sex because they've been sexually abused by men. I know some of these women.

I can't believe facilitating men to break the law matters more to you than their needs.

Slow to reply and expect thread has moved on, but surely you can empathise with a girl victim of csa feeling terrifed at finding themselves alone with a very male bodied person in a public loo between them and the door? Why does that child's feelings mean less than the adult males?

And what if that particular male bodied person WAS a rapist? That people saw entering from the outside but didn't want to "offend" by challenging them. And a child was born from a child as a result?

Doesn't a child's right to safety and protection come before ANY adult's feelings? Especially when a child can be born from rape as a result? As could ONLY happen to a female?

Fellow survivor of CSA here so I can understand you may have issues in thinking around this. I have spent years in therapy due to being overtrusting because my boundaries were fucked.

I’m one of those women, ffs! I’m telling you that trans women don’t frighten me because it was heterosexual men that hurt me, not trans women.

But my opinion/feelings don’t matter because they don’t align with yours? Ok.

Where has anyone on this thread said different?

I’ve been abused by men too. I don’t care what sexual orientation they had, or have any interest in their gender identity. It’s not relevant, and it’s not top trumps on who has the worst life story. Women need privacy and dignity, and to feel safe when we are vulnerable.

That’s it, and your view is a fringe one. Men don’t belong in women only spaces, whatever your poorly understood notions of “trans” and how sorry for those men you are.

I’m so sorry.

I can only comment on how I personally. feel.

Trans women have never felt threatening to me.

Why are your feelings relevant to this specifically? Do you think they override the consent of the majority of women who see through the lie that some men are women?

This to me is just another form of bigotry though if you've been hurt by someone, why assume they're all the same? Whether a man, someone who is black, or gay/not straight
It starts to sound like prejudicea are coming into play.

WTAF? Top Trumps? How bloody dare you?

If you’re an example of a feminist, I can do without it thank you,

Signal my virtue?

Jesus Christ you’re unbelievable.

But they do to others @MrsSkylerWhite
Because they are male. And some victims just can't get past that terror of the male body. Maybe you've somehow been able to disconnect yourself from that aspect somehow, but other victims are not at the same place as you, and they shouldn't be forced if they're not ready.

I am sorry you had the experience you have.

How bloody dare you. You accused people of not caring about child abuse. That is a lie.