To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

@ThePure thanks. Her lovely consultant was v sweet when she found out she’d got into training but also cross with her that it wasn’t psych. The nurses bought her a present when she finished the rotation. Maybe one day.

I am interested that in fact FY2 Drs did not apply for training jobs

In the GMC medical workforce report posted upthread it says that over half of FY2 Drs DID NOT apply for specialist training. It says that ‘Drs taking time away from training is now the norm’

It also says that the growth in overseas Drs is largely directed into ‘locally employed’ roles ie non training grade jobs like the urology one mentioned upthread and NOT into training roles.

To some extent this is also a thing that has always been in that people used to take a few ‘stand alone’ SHO posts or locum before deciding what to do. The government tried to stop that with MMC and run through training but it looks like Drs have gone back to doing it after FY2. The reason the government did that was to stop people hanging around at SHO level holding out for better jobs and causing bottlenecks whilst other jobs were unfilled. I think we have a repeat of that scenario here.

Are we really sure that all these unemployed Drs really can’t get ANY kind of job in medicine or are they not applying because they are holding out for super competitive jobs like cardio thoracic that aren’t realistic to get and not willing to consider psych and GP which are still having to rely the most heavily on IMG Drs? In the meantime Drs are hoping to get locum or ‘trust grade’ ‘FY3’ jobs that are less available as they are being filled by IMGs. This seems the most plausible scenario that chimes with my own experiences

The report is from 2024 commenting on 2023 data. Had something changed so drastically this year for all these Drs to be unemployed?? The immigration changes were in 2018 so why would that effect only be realised this year?

This is very interesting.

Is anyone aware of data on the reasons for the decline in F2 applications for training jobs?

Please also see the post about writing goodbye letters to family during COVID, also from a Consultant.

I remember that very moving post. I am not scrolling back through hundreds of posts.

But many risk their lives on the job. Aside from the usual suspects, about 580 school, FE and HE staff have died since 1980 from mesothelioma traceable to asbestos exposure at work. That’s over 10 times the doctor Covid death rate - and otherwise the doctor death rate from work causes (in the UK) is so small as to be very difficult to find.

Those doctors - not all if them - and other HCP who exposed themselves to danger were courageous. So are many others.

The GMC report shows trends but of necessity due to its scope not the current situation.

For that there is https://foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/06/UKFP-2024-F2-Career-Destination-Survey-Report.pdf This report is from a questionaire with a small response rate but it is broadly speaking in line with the GMC's findings.

The following figures refer to UK graduates. At the end of F2 80% of respondents had confirmed medical employment (up from 70% five years earlier). Only 47% of respondents applied for CT1/ST1 posts, and the success rate for those applications was 62%. Therefore 29.7% of UK educated F2s were appointed to a Core/ST post.

Mumsneedwine denied it, but as I suggested earlier this must be the 30% to which she referred. As also noted earlier, not applying for a post is the best way of not getting one.

434 Core/ST posts went to UKGs cf 49 to IMGs.

Yet your original point was "Military, including doctors, and police are prepared to put themselves in harm’s way to protect the rest of us. They deserve remuneration reflecting this risk" Why were you singling them out when you are now acknowledging that many others are courageous? Strange logic.

I think this is a tale as old as time and just like pre MMC

FY2 Drs clearly just are not applying for training programmes and this is the main reason they are not getting them. I think they are choosing to do this new invention ‘FY3’ posts (which are locally employed non official posts) in the hope of improving CVs to get more sought after specialties or locations.

This is rather different from the narrative that there are no training posts available because IMGs have taken them all.

GP trainees were 52% IMG in 2023 and psych 40% a/c that GMC report vs 14% in ophthalmology (notoriously good for private work) and 19% for surgery. I believe that U.K. grads are not applying for unpopular training jobs (which is consistent with the way things have always been)

I think that FY2 Drs could get a psych or GP job if they wanted to especially in an unpopular area of the U.K. No way are they being outcompeted for those jobs to the extent of them being 50% IMG. UK grads don’t want to do those jobs as they would rather hang out for something they prefer.

Once again there is nothing new in the world of medicine. We have been round this before

I think that pretty much sums it up.

All that seems to me to have changed is that IMGs who were previously relegated to only applying to jobs no one else wanted are now able to apply to the cardiothoracic surgery posts as well and some of them are getting them and the elite high flying U.K. Drs who wanted those posts are cross and are ‘forced’ to hang around in FY3 posts gumming up the system for those coming after. If people were more willing to do unpopular stuff the bottle necks would go away.

So come on medic mums and those who know some FY Drs encourage them into psych or GP. We are ready and waiting to snap up good applicants and psych is an excellent, worthwhile and interesting career with probably only a similar risk of being punched in the face to emergency medicine (they used to be really unpopular too but seems not so much now. I think they played a blinder linking into ACCS. Don’t think neuro would have us…)

Because risking their lives is built into their jobs in a way that it isn’t for doctors, ot teachers.

Nearly 100x as many police have lost their lives in the course of duty as doctors over the last 100 years, and since WW2 about 175x as many military as doctors.

Covid was a once in a century event. By that logic we should include the risk to military life of WW2, with over 383, 000 British military lives lost. So in 100 years, 390,000 military lives vs 49 plus a number too small to track if doctor lives.

When risk to life is baked in to a profession, it should be remunerated. When it isn’t, shit happens and doctors and other HCPs are not the only heroes.

FWIW I never once thought I was a hero for working on the wards during the pandemic. My family and friends were ‘banned’ from doing the pots and pans thing. Hideous.

I was just doing the job I was paid to do. The word hero makes me cringe and is so overused. Doctors were not automatically heroes for working during Covid. Neither were nurses. Soldiers aren’t automatically heroes for the work they do either.

The word hero should be used for rare and unexpected acts that go beyond and above the norm.

Can’t exactly remember what my point was but I have never wanted or expected recognition for my work during Covid. I feel embarrassed and shudder a bit if that’s ever mentioned. I just did my job which changed a lot for a couple of years, but ultimately it was still just my job.

I thought the pots and pans/applause thing was cringe and actually I agree that it isn’t appealing to think of yourself as a hero for doing your duty.

But the rest of can.

@ThePure I’m sure when people need a doctor they never ask what school did the doctor go to? Who on earth cares? I just want someone competent.

Maybe privately educated dc strike less? Why are they not just as good as everyone else - and guess what? Their parents are doctors! Doctor professor neighbour - 2 privately educated DDs now both doctors. Many doctors use private schools around here or the local grammar as their dc are super bright. Of course. They have every advantage as they are dc of doctors! That’s the real reason others don’t get in. The job is so awful, their dc are groomed to do it!

It is generally acknowledged that widening participation in the medical profession would be a good thing so that it relates better to the people it serves. This is not a controversial opinion except on Mumsnet where apparently all of the 7% of people who go to private school post.

Also the type of people were are educating at medical school don’t seem to want to do the jobs that need doing. We do not need any more cardiothoracic surgeons or ophthalmologists. We need a lot more GPs and psychiatrists who are now over 50% from overseas because U.K. grads won’t apply for these jobs.

And a/c to that very amusing ‘married to an orthopaedic surgeon’ thread one Drs salary is no longer enough to send the kids private. Due to the awful pay erosion Drs kids are now sadly having to go to the schools that the other 93% of people go to.

To be fair, Pure, 'the type of people we are educating' are much less likely to be privately educated now. When they were privately educated they applied for jobs rather than complaining that there weren't any and they didn't strike with tedious regularity.

Oh this is the best one yet ! Those pesky poor people.

True though.

Oh dear. Really hope you are not involved with other humans in your job.

7% of doctors are from WP. But apparently strikes are all their fault. Who knew their super power was so mighty !

I know many F2s either going into GP this year or who tried and didn’t get in. This is despite the fear of not having a job at the end of training. Lots do want to be GPs but because it’s purely MSRA (like psych) there is no interview so no need to show you want it. Easier to score higher in exam if not working in the NHS at same time.

I said nothing about WP. The fact is that more medical students now are state educated than previously. I simply pointed out a couple of simple truths which you don't like. You not liking them doesn't make them less true.

Ah I see. It’s all pesky state school students. The super power extends further than I thought.