To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

@ThePure my DD and all her friends, in several different (non London) deaneries often do nights and have done since day 1 of F1. They’ve never had 48 hours off after a night shift, unless a training or study day. DD is currently on day 4 of 7 long ones. I’ll tell her not to bother with the next 3 !

This is the reality of what is asked of them 🤷‍♀️

@poetryandwine Leng has said advanced PAs will become a thing. But PAs will thankfully now have a scope, but can’t still see ‘simple adult cases’, no idea how you know they are simple ! My issue with PAs is not pay but patient safety ??? Surely every doctor should focus on that - non medics doing endoscopies and caesareans and anaesthetising people ? As a patient no thanks.

While we have unemployed F3s, who are cheaper than PAs and can do so much more, why are we not employing them ? And if the NHS can afford to pay PAs so much money why can’t doctors at least earn the same as their assistants ?

If I am ‘undervaluing Drs’ then I do at least apply it to myself as well. I just do happen to genuinely believe that I went into this as a vocation to help people knowing full well that I could have got paid more for an easier life doing something else. I kind of expect my colleagues to have that attitude because most people who work for the NHS in any role do. It’s part of the core values of the service that you are not primarily in it for yourself. I can’t understand an attitude of being prepared to strike and harm patients to prove one’s own value. If that makes me a mug who is getting exploited then so be it. My pay has indeed been eroded like many people in many walks of life. I can’t afford to send my kids to private school, buy a great big house or two, go skiing or retire early like Drs a generation above me but I live comfortably enough, much better than most people in most other jobs and I have all that I realistically need. Doctors pay is not poor. I don’t know why we are comparing it to the past instead of to other comparable jobs. When I was a school governor I was shocked at how little even a very experienced head teacher was paid in comparison to a Dr. It will be a tough sell to convince other people in society that Drs are poorly paid.

You need to consider that's £71/hr for someone probably working between 40-48hrs a week including antisocial hours.

There's a point where that becomes unattractive, especially if it pushes you towards taxation cliff edges such as loss of personal allowance, AA taper etc, and even more so if there is alternative work that pays more.

As an example - my standard week is 52 hrs, I get up at 5am, get home at 7-8pm, I only see my family on Sat/Sun. The rate I get for extra work is £90 - I worked it out as £53 after tax/NI, but I also lose 50p of personal allowance, so call it £50/hr.

It costs me more than that to get a tradesman - so it's actually more cost effective to stay at home and paint the windows, or do the gardening, or wash the car than it is to do extra work, the other factor is the value of family time per hour at home increases exponentially as the number of hours reduces.

https://www.nhsemployers.org/publications/faqs-2016-doctors-training-contract

I’m just going off this link
According to this 4 long days is the max and it’s 48hrs off after a night shift
Maybe she should exception report it

Crab. Meet Bucket.

Why compare yourself to the average worker - what's average about being in the top 1% of academic performers since you were 16 years old?

What's average about nights, rotations, professional fees and life and death decisions that are so innate you forget they even are - every prescription, fluid bag or diagnostic decision is potentially life or death - as evidenced by lesser trained people getting it wrong.

You might be happy with your assistant getting potentially payed more than you.

I'm not.

That’s where I’m at with it too
My time off is so precious to me as my job is so bloody stressful all the time and worse with strikes.
I volunteered quite enthusiastically last time as it was novel and I wanted to be helpful. This time I have ‘done the math’ and concluded it’s not worth it for me.
I’d actually rather some extra holiday allowance in lieu but that would also be quite bad for patient care I guess.

They have well paid secure jobs and fab pensions
And should get on with it

Medicine is a broad church I guess.

@ThePure the BMA will just tell residents they have to go in. Happened last strike. DD was called in for nights as lack of staff. Wasn’t on rotation for nights but the person who was was sick. No doctor will compromise safety. Although she said it was the most staffed night shift she had ever done. Safe staffing levels seem non negotiable on strike days, just not on every other day of the year.

@Motheranddaughter secure jobs ? You mean unemployment for 48% of current F2s next month ? GPs out of work, ST3s can’t get a job. That kind of job security ?

@ThePure she has, many many times. Nothing changes. Moving deanery soon and new rota has got 48 hours so finish 8am Mon and start 8am Thurs. She just told me she has to go home at 5pm today as 7 long days not allowed (my mistake - it’s 3 long, one normal, 3 long), but has already been ‘asked’ to stay until 11pm as short staffed.

If anyone interested why doctors get cross, a PA will earn the same as an ST8.

Not replacements? But PA/ANP working on resident doctor rota over night. So you don’t need a medicine degree to do the job ? If that’s true then we need to let young people know not to bother as much cheaper if can learn on the job.

@mumsneedwine

You say: "I think the arguments that it was much harder years ago are irrelevant. It’s hard today in different ways, no firms, constant moving, medicine is more complicated, massive under staffing. But it shouldn’t matter. Doctors should not be paid less than 10 years ago."

It never ceases to amaze me how much nonsense you manage to fit into so few words with so much conviction.

It has been pointed out to you by doctors who are in a position to know (which you are not), that juniors previously worked longer hours, were more experienced, had more responsibility, and were more productive. Medicine may be more complicated but emphatically not as practised by juniors for whom decision making is either not necessary, grossly simplified, or supervised. (You have also been told that doctors have always moved, very few stay in the same place; from house jobs to consultant I worked in eight cities to gain the training that I wanted.)

You should not expect the same pay for doing less work.

However, you think that it is it is only relevant to compare remuneration. So you proceed to say that they are paid less than ten years ago - but it is equally valid to say that they are paid more now.

www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/resident-doctor-pay-how-do-different-methods-affect-how-pay-changes-appear

@Marchesman and I disagree. And can do so without being patronising or rude. As a doctor, I hope this is just the way you speak to me, and not your colleagues. Some of whom are working 78+ hours this week. Probably some of them unpaid and all of them less than they would gave earned for the same job 10 years ago.

Being rude will not mean I agree with you. And many consultants I work with tell me they feel the same.

I do sympathise but ‘twas ever thus and at least there is a mechanism to report it now which did not exist at all in the past. There has always been a lot of informal pressure to do extra hours. It does not really go away even when you are a consultant I’m afraid.

At one point when I was an SHO we had a rota monitoring exercise and the trust was going to get fined for breaching EWTD so we were all ‘encouraged’ via a personal call from the medical director to say that we had merely decided to stay late out of the goodness of our own hearts and for our own reasons and could have left if we wanted to.

@ThePure they’ve tried that 😂. Fortunately the BMA sent a nicely worded email to inform the trust that asking staff to work for free is illegal. Things have always been tough, but is that a reason to not try and make them better ?

There is a mechanism for Trusts to apply to be allowed to do this is there is a genuine safety concern which I think is agreed with the Union. I am sure we would all agree that is an appropriate safeguard

@ThePure definitely. It’s got a name I can’t spell ! No doctor is going to jeopardise patient safety.

Although it would be nice if they ensured wards were safely staffed on every day.

Derogation maybe?

https://www.bma.org.uk/our-campaigns/resident-doctor-campaigns/pay-in-england/resident-doctors-guide-to-industrial-action-in-england/on-the-day-of-strike-action

They can only be asked to come into work on strike days if the BMA agrees a derogation with the Trust and not on a 1:1 basis

If our Trust really doesn’t get any volunteers for consultants to cover the strike days then I will step up, despite my reservations, as I would of course not want to see patients suffer.

Junior Drs are also advised by the BMA not to tell trusts if they will be striking or not which led to some absurd situations last time of the junior Dr actually being at work and consultants also being paid locum shifts.

@ThePure that’s the word ! Think it happened quite a bit during last strike. As it should. Patients come first.

And for me, kids do, so off the teach year 12 some exciting organic chemistry.

I've spent a whole morning trying to get through to the private sector Spire. I suspect they're overloaded now, I've managed to book a phone call with my consultant one evening next week. Everyone has confirmed that he's had my x-ray and MRI a week ago now. The health system is in crisis.