To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

What moral grounds?

Obviously that’s true but it is voluntary over time so I am not obliged to take it if I feel it’s not worth my while.

If juniors want to strike and therefore be paid nothing then that is their own choice. No one is forcing them to go on strike.

I posted the rates mainly to point out how this is going to bankrupt the NHS. These are the rates Trusts are paying for cover because they are not allowed to get locums at junior Dr level by strike rules and if you think of that replicated across the country it beggars belief how much these few days will cost the NHS not to mention all the cancelled ops and appts.

I don’t believe in private medicine. I believe that my skills and abilities that the NHS trained m for should be deployed in the service of those in the greatest need who are not usually those most able to pay so I have never done any private work and I never will do.

I completely agree with you but I was countering the point that it wasn’t worthwhile after tax. You’d have to be rich enough to set fire to £20 notes to consider £71 an hour after tax to not be worth bothering with.

It’s £71 an hour for a very tough job though. Clinically I can do it standing on my head but I don’t know/ have forgotten how to do a lot of clinical system/ admin type things or stuff like how to work the bloody printer which makes me slow and frustrated. (I think I was not alone as last time the ward was full of very senior Drs and none of us could figure out how to print out a discharge summary or send a blood test request). I’m also 30 years older than the last time I regularly did a bunch of night shifts with no hormones left to speak of and I discovered last time that I don’t have the stamina to do a lot of extra night shifts on top of my day job which of course I still have to carry on at the same pace. I volunteered for a load of shifts last time (because initially we did not know how long it would keep going on) and I just got really tired and burnt out and I don’t think I will risk that again this time. As you can perhaps tell from the fact I don’t work privately I am a person who really does not believe that money is the be all and end all of everything.

Yep. “Junior” doctors are literally anything below consultant level. This is what people fail to realise.

I think you might be in the wrong job, don't you ?

You've basically spammed this thread to the point I'm scrolling past everything you post. Your style of posting and choice of language is not one that brings people over to your point of view but instead turns us away.
May I kindly suggest that you step away from this thread before you do any more harm to your cause

Really, I'm not sure. in Wales surgery is so hard to get waiting lists that I'm glad they get the extra practice and shorten the NHS list here. We have to wait longer than in England .

@Hoardasurass 😂 I’ve posted once in the last 24 hours but good you think I’m still here. Some of us have to work. But I’ll post when and where I like - not sure who put you in charge. And I’ve had so many messages of support it’s been really lovely.

Leng review tomorrow which I believe is interesting. And Wes talking to BMA which is good.

And I’m still waiting for the evidence of my disparaging remarks ? I expect rudeness and abuse back.

@mumsneedwine please tell me where I claimed that you were making disparaging remarks?
Also I never said i was in charge of the thread i was mearly pointing out that your style of posting was harming your cause and btw calling people scabs isn't a great look

You make a good point about consultants being unfamiliar with systems admin wise and thus wasting time. Also doing double shifts with a day job as well. Age does have it's drawbacks. I can't function without sufficient sleep as I once did.

@Hoardasurassyou didn’t. But others did and were pretty nasty with it.

No. I’ve done it for 20 years- and I’m pretty damn good at it.
I just believe that we should get paid in line with inflation. Not less, year on year.

Sounds to me like this is all about you feeling 'owed' something. Let your patients decide whether you are 'pretty damn good at it'....you do remember them, right?

In case it is of interest to anyone. The Telegraph on the leader of the BMA.

https://archive.ph/AHlHO

Someone I met last night had been working on how many dependants are being brought in by HCP/care workers recruited by the NHS and others in the health sector. He said the numbers are surprisingly high relative to other forms of immigration. Recruitment from overseas rather than hiring young nurses, midwives and doctors already in the country might generate short term cost saving for the NHS and effectively deflate salaries, but the cost of housing, schooling etc will be significant. Farage at the moment is probably happy sitting on the sidelines watching Wes deal with resident doctors. I would far prefer the BMA to be focussing on issues that would strengthen the NHS.

@ThePure thank you for your explanation of why PAs can be more useful than F1/F2s. DD's experience of working alongside a, very nice, PA was that the PA had shorter hours, training time, and quite a lot of time off in lieu was paid more and was quite limited in the procedures she could carry out. They did not seem to have a budget to cover doctor vacancies. I assume there was a budget for a PA so they took that.

@oddandelsewhere I should also thank you. On the previous thread I struggled to understand your view that F1s/F2s had it easy. DD was totally exhausted at the start of F1, and she is normally a trooper. I told DH that English F1/F2s got a week off after nights, and his response was that had this been the case she never would have been in work. The mix of longs and lates and nights initially messed with her ability to sleep but being young she soon sorted herself out, so much sympathy to those who might be asked to cover.

Well losing £1 of the personal allowance for every
£2 earned above £100,000 the effective tax rate will be 60%. I.e. you may get to keep less than half of that.

@Needmoresleep English F1/2 do not get a week off after nights, they get one clear day. So if you finish at 8am on Monday you are back 8am Wednesday. 7 long days, one day off, 5 nights, one day off not uncommon.

What on earth is wrong with you?
yes- we are owed pay rises.

Was what I said arguing with that. Read what I actually wrote. At that tax rate the net pay would be £71 an hour. Are you seriously saying that’s not worth having?

Yes thats exactly it. I am aware it’s a nice problem to have but it’s not enough incentive for me to work extra ward cover night shifts

This was upthread:

When junior Drs started to be entitled to a whole week off after night shifts and a whole day off after just a long day/ evening shift I thought it extremely generous.
Then there was ‘exception reporting’ where they got time off in lieu for staying even 30 mins late

What I do know is that some Deaneries do not expect F1s and in some cases F2s to work nights. I was wondering whether it is because they are relatively expensive. And that use of other staff (including PAs) has become more practical.

The rest, I don't know but after many many posts from doctors it does seem as if things are easier now. It doesn't matter. I still think resident doctors be pulling together with their colleagues and wider society to, essentially, save the NHS rather than try to grab a bigger part of a limited public funding cake. And I think that the word "scab" is pejorative and has no place in a Union of supposed professionals. Is this what teachers call their non-striking colleagues?

@Needmoresleep yes, I’ve been called a scab. But might be because where I worked was an ex mining town. It’s a word I don’t find offensive, as I’ve grown up with its use, it just means non striker. But some people seem more offended by it, so maybe a regional/working class thing ?

Not sure PAs work nights v often, and they are much more expensive than a F1/2. They get much better OOH enhancements than doctors. Also, no consultant on wards so legally no named supervision.

I think the arguments that it was much harder years ago are irrelevant. It’s hard today in different ways, no firms, constant moving, medicine is more complicated, massive under staffing. But it shouldn’t matter. Doctors should not be paid less than 10 years ago. And I believe in everyone’s right to strike although I’ve never done it. How otherwise do you make people realise your worth ? This thread alone has shown how people view doctors - it’s a vocation (doesn’t pay bills), you should just care about patients so much (doesn’t pay bills). Young doctors feel demoralised and under valued.

V soon an Advanced Physician Assistant will be in band 9, earning the same as a consultant. With no medical degree. Either you need to do the doctor thing or you don’t and if there is money to employ non doctors on more pay why is there not money to pay doctors. The cost of locum consultants seems to be £148 an hour and will be found. Doctors want £4-7 an hour more, over several years, which is cheaper ?

I really hope the talks make progress and the strike is called off. And I doubt many will be allowed to take part anyway as many consultants not willing to step up (can’t blame them as it’s awful I’m sure) so there will be lack of staff so legally they’ll go in to ensure minimum staffing levels. Which ironically never happen on non strike days.

It must depend on the rota but I can assure you of the Drs I supervised on the 2016 contract the FY1s didn’t do nights at all and the FY2s and CTs had a whole week off after nights and at least a day off (or might even have been more) after a weekend.

Even the BMA website says it’s 48 hours off after ANY night shift and you can’t even do a week of nights any more you can only do FOUR in a row (not 5) for the 2016 contract. It also says you can only do FOUR consecutive long days (not 7) and you must have 48hrs off after 7 consecutive shifts so if you work a weekend it’s 48h off so what you have posted as ‘not uncommon’ can’t be legal.

A report has just come out recommending that PAs be relegated to caring for patients who have been triaged - reported in the Guardian today. This does not sound consistent with opening Band 9 to PAs. I am sceptical.

The report, as summarised, seems well balanced.

However it may well feed your indignation over current pay (that seems no different to several of us from the training systems in our fields we don’t get worked up over).