... to think that Nigel Farage will be our next PM?

[ohime]

Or, more accurately: AIBU to be afraid that truly nasty piece of work Nigel Farage who has, by all accounts, always been utterly useless at (or at least completely uninterested in) the actual business end of governing will be our next PM because everyone is so fed up with all the other parties being, variously or all at once, so corrupt, incompetent and useless that we've collectively abandoned all hope? I will never vote for Farage, who is a horrible man, or any of his party which keeps having to fire people for being just a teensy bit too overtly racist - but it seems from the polls that for many people the choice against the status quo outweighs what we may be choosing. (For an example, I can't believe that Farage's stated position that DOGE in the US didn't go far enough with its swinging cuts to the social safety net would be popular with UK voters who recently elected a government on the basis that it would reverse years of Tory austerity... not that that's worked out so well...)

The Dr's going on strike wont be on much more than average earnings - hourly rate.

Its not just Australia, its Europe, NZ, the USA, Canada...

You re being rather complacent... given how much it costs to train and our health system

Given the latest OBR forecast I suggest it is you that is being complacent.

Actually if I were an NHS doctor I'd be jumping ship now to get first in the queue of all those other UK doctors fleeing to deprived countries like NZ and Canada who are unable to train their own doctors for their vast populations. The hugely generous package they are currently on in the UK can't last after the UK bankruptcy.

They won't move btw. They are on to too good a thing here. And the government is scared of them.

Oh dear...bankruptcy! don't you mean IMF ? lol!

I'll leave you to talk down the UK and its prospects.

All because they stopped serving the country and only focused on their own interest. They knew Brexit was going to be toxic for ordinary Brits. Didn't stop them and that's unforgivable. I am still incredibly angry with Cameron. I hope history judges him harshly.

Do you not rate the OBR forecast?

Think it’s ridiculous that we train doctors here, and then they jump ship and move countries after finishing. There should be a minimum term that they have to work in the UK or they pay back the cost of their training.

What min term would you like? they'd still leave after that plus they already pay back a proportion of their training costs.

How about we make the NHS a great place to work instead?

How about both?

Agree. Any training financed by taxpayers needs a return for taxpayers. Perfectly normal system in any other private sector profession.

A Doctor or any other HCP will start in the NHS with debts of around 50k to 100k, my DD owes 45k, would be more now & did 100s of hours of unpaid work during her degree.

Who would pay to give these people free tuition? what about HCPs who have stayed in the NHS, paid back large amounts?

You'd either have to refund these or create a 2 tier system of employees.

I see Jenrick is now talking up a gilts crisis, what a xxxx he really is.

I am a CBT therapist worked in primary care NHS for 3/4 years. If we left suddenly after our training, some providers asked us to pay a proportion of the costs. It was written in the contract. Think it should be the same for GPs and any other HCPs in receipt of funded training.

Not all HCPs start with large debts like that though. And it already is a bit of a two tier system as many nurses who trained prior to 2017 (approx) had full funding. Yes, they didn’t always get paid for placement but the NHS isn’t an endless pit of money and they will have a stable job/career for life.

I agree - it should be both. I don’t feel I have enough info to be able to propose a minimum term if I’m completely honest, but perhaps at least 2 years? I know doctors who have just come here from another country to complete their training in England and they’ve been open about going back to that country once they have finished. I think that’s wrong and somewhat exploitative of our NHS. Whilst I am aware there is a bit of a recruitment issue, this shouldn’t be happening as we vitally need doctors in this country.

Also if we imposed minimum terms, then it might plug the shortage (albeit temporarily), until further Doctors can be trained. It’s just an idea. I think the same should go for most other HCP positions. The NHS is spending so much money on their training and for agency workers that we simply cannot afford this skills gap in my opinion.
It could potentially bring down waiting lists as well.

Appreciate this is a drop in the ocean.

I agree with this statement. If nothing changes, there will be civil war in the UK as per professor David Betz..

Yes, I agree. The British public is certainly in distress, and we are in a cyclical environment of abuse. It doesn’t matter what party it is in power.

I don’t really know how we can change it though. I often wonder why more decisions aren’t put to public vote, why is it just for a minority of people in the House of Commons - it’s not representative

Well, lets make it a 3 tier system then?

£27k in tuition fees plus living loan, 45k is a min unless parental support - a Doctor with a far longer training period, will rack up more debt, a lot more.

If there is no bottomless pit, then how would we pay for the billions required to pay for HCP tuition fees?

Higher wages, mean - generally speaking - less in work benefits, more taxes paid, happier workforce, better retention.... bribing people to stay, on the other hand, just makes people miserable, counting down the days until they can leave.... then there is the cost to the tax payer.

If i could pull one lever for the NHS, it would be to reduce PT work - a lot of waste with patient handovers and admin for all these extra workers.

The distress votes in pp is an good way to look at it. Brexit a hear some of us, it was close still of course and the leave campaign much more effective.

Reform is similar.

I disagree with reducing PT work. Have you ever worked in the NHS? It’s a very stressful environment, and with the job I do, it’s very taxing to do it FT, so I currently work 32 hours a week.
A lot of people are navigating families, caring responsibilities and underlying health conditions or disabilities outside of work as well, so I don’t think that’s the answer. Flexible working should be a right.

I hear what you’re saying in that it could come across as punitive, but I think it’s only fair. I have a student loan from my first degree - I am over 10 years into paying it, but nowhere near paying it off. It’s a small amount that is deducted from my salary each month and I’ve just come to accept it. With a GP’s wage after qualifying - they would be in the same boat, and it’s relative.

Jeeeez IMF, Civil war... now Public distress!

Even Reform can't even get 30% in the polls, despite a highly unpopular government and the Tories in disarray.

Brexit was a lesson in how to con the public into getting a fat oaf into power via stirring up non existent concerns..... had Bojo decided to support Remain, Leave would have lost, thats how "distressed" he public was....

In 2012, EU membership didn't even figure in the UK publics top 10 concerns.

How many MPs did UKip have in 2010?

I think it was stirring by politicians… (Brexit)…

Unsure about full blown civil war though tbh. When was the last civil war in the UK?!

There will likely be political unrest and further division but I think civil war might be a stretch.

In my DD dept, 2/3rd of the med staff are PT, large costs to the NHS and disruptive patient care.

All organisations face the issues you state, i'd argue that if you had more FT, you'd reduce the stress.

It comes down to providing the support for staff to work FT, your 32 hours is pretty much FT, i'm talking about people who do 2 or 3 days per week.

Distress is another way to look at voting. It’s an indication of what the public are unhappy about.

It’s not just here similar patterns are happening in the EU.

It’s just a clash of laws and public wants.

Without change the voices get louder, hence Reform or EU equivalent. We are a pretty well behaved bunch we do it with voting.

Ah ok, I do hear you.
maybe this is an issue with recruitment / management in your daughter’s department? I can’t say it’s the case for every service or NHS trust. We have quite good cover in my team. I don’t know what service line she works for, is she in nursing?