... to think that Nigel Farage will be our next PM?

[ohime]

Or, more accurately: AIBU to be afraid that truly nasty piece of work Nigel Farage who has, by all accounts, always been utterly useless at (or at least completely uninterested in) the actual business end of governing will be our next PM because everyone is so fed up with all the other parties being, variously or all at once, so corrupt, incompetent and useless that we've collectively abandoned all hope? I will never vote for Farage, who is a horrible man, or any of his party which keeps having to fire people for being just a teensy bit too overtly racist - but it seems from the polls that for many people the choice against the status quo outweighs what we may be choosing. (For an example, I can't believe that Farage's stated position that DOGE in the US didn't go far enough with its swinging cuts to the social safety net would be popular with UK voters who recently elected a government on the basis that it would reverse years of Tory austerity... not that that's worked out so well...)

Cameron was that worried about Ukip/Farage that he bowed to their demands for a referendum.

In 2015, Cameron refused to rule out a coalition with UKIP, so Farage could have been deputy PM.....

Polling in 2013 predicted Ukip would get 80 MPs at the next GE.

The huge change, as well as the one you have mentioned, is that the prediction for the total number of Tory MPs in 2029 is just 81.....

A once great party that i have voted for in the past, may almost cease to exist in just a few years.

Much will hinge on macrons visit this week ,there are calls to get a refund on the millions and millions we give France to simply watch boats get loaded up and wave them on their way.
I can't understand why Macron hasn't been held to account.

Labour doesn't represent anyone anymore except some minorities and unfortunately the working class are clear they don't represent them .

So I don't know where any labour votes would come from ,sad .

I worked in one of those hospitals. I can categorically assure you that the NHS had never been in better shape. Maybe stop telling people to google nonsense and look at patient satisfaction ratings - they were 70% in 2009, by 2022 they’d fallen to a record low of 29%.

@blossomtoes I will see if I can work out how to link later and send through the links showing the absolute carnage that faced our maternity ward where women were turned away in labour and left in perilous situations all over .
The catastrophic storm of events that led to a massive surge in births and a shortage of midwives.

As well as Staffordshire hospital and others dangerously close to total collapse.

Well however good or bad the NHS was in the olden days, it's not sustainable now. Too many people. And a dreadful economy so we can't pay for it. Notwithstanding the avarice of the junior doctors with their already astounding benefits, pensions and wages.

I would still rather have the NHS than the system they have in the USA, though, @Quirkswork.

Yes agreed. But how? We are becoming a health service with a country attached. And Labour are busy scaring off the 1% whose taxes mainly pay for it.

I just don’t think people see that much of a difference between the main two parties now. Much of what people lambast Labour for were an issue under the Tories too.

There are many many many other options than just NHS vs. USA system.

Oh make up your mind @Quirkswork. In one post it’s the avarice of the junior doctors with their already astounding benefits, pensions and wages - on which they pay tax, lots of it. In the next it’s Labour are busy scaring off the 1% whose taxes mainly pay for it. Taxes (apart from employers NI) are precisely the same as they were when the Tories were in power.

I'm not sure what your point is.

Labour are scaring off millionaires.

Doctors are greedy and already paid handsomely and will have huge pensions with nearly 30% employers contribution.

Both can be true surely?

Yes so how will the rest? I guess we’ll find out.

Those highly paid doctors are also paying a lot of tax and are also leaving in droves. I know which we’ll miss more.

We've had many other maternity scandals since 2010 and MH ones too... and no one has said the NHS was perfect either.... i can tell you of issues in the French & Swedish health systems too, you re dealing with humans, that can mean error.

No one with any independent thought thinks the NHS was worse in 2010 than it was under the Tories.

Just a smoke screen for the disaster that has been the 14 years of Tory govt.

A doctor in France earns far more than a Doctor in the NHS.

UK HCP salaries are not high in international comparisons, my DD earned 2x in Australia than what she now gets in the NHS.

But @blossomtoes is correct, you moan about the tax burden not being shared but then moan moan moan about people being paid well.. which is it?

Don't you realise that the main reason the tax burden has fallen on to the top 5% of earners is because the Tories held down wages for so many, esp in the public sector.

It doesn’t have to just be that or the US though @SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius?

All of which involve paying exactly the same amount of tax as we do already BUT having to pay for some sort of social insurance on top, shared between employee and employer.

I'm sure that'll go down well on here......

Why do you think this is true for all global health systems?

Because they’ve never had a healthcare system like ours to lose. No economist or healthcare expert believes that adopting a different funding model would improve the NHS. It would be like trying to fix the engine by re spraying the bodywork.

Raise taxes that was a risk but Labour had a good majority, tax the super wealthy. Under Labour at this time there was a huge surge in money coming in from abroad, investing here as a way to pay little tax (this is when foreign investment in properties really took hold in London)

It was a poor move from Labour to take the risk to add to Trusts debts it was short sighted.

I am very much a supporter of Blair/Brown but I do absolutely acknowledge mistakes they made

unfortunately governments now all seem to be working on quick fixes. The NHS is broken (yes made worse by the Tories) but we are where we are. The only positive that Labour can spin at the moment is that the NHS is free at the point of service. What is the point in this when the services are so often poor. We deserve better staff working in healthcare deserve better.

The NHS should not be used as a political football and we should not be manipulated into thinking we are lucky because at one time the NHS was a great health service. People are seeing through this as more and more people are receiving poor care. The days of the great NHS are long gone and its about time politicians worked (collectively) towards a health service that

We are not all right wingers that believe the NHS is beyond saving (few of my colleagues believe this now, that very different from 8 years ago when we marched to save the NHS)

This sounds like a lot of things you are assuming but have no evidence for (although surely the idea that nobody sees the NHS as worth copying as an indicator that others believe there are better ways of providing universal healthcare.

This was the view of a parliamentary committee set up to review the funding model.

The committee considered the advantages and disadvantages of the UK moving to an alternative funding model. It said there was “general agreement that this would not be a viable solution for the UK”. It added that the committee was “not persuaded of any link between the way you choose to collect the money to fund a health service and performance”.

The committee’s conclusion on the future funding system of the NHS emphasised that it was how revenue was used that was the important factor, rather than how it was generated. It said:

International evidence shows that a tax-funded, single payer model of paying for healthcare has substantial advantages in terms of universal coverage and overall efficiency. There was no evidence to suggest that alternative systems such as social insurance would deliver a more sustainable health service. Sustainability depends on the level of funding and, crucially, how those funds are used.[22]

What health systems?

All the ones usually mentioned are variations on this.

Italy Sweden and Portugal all operate a tax payer funded model as per the UK...

Which countries exactly copies France? or Germany? or Australia?

The claim "ah no one copies the NHS" well every country has its own specific model

Insurance based models, require the individual to top up, in France, its around 70/30 split between taxation and insurance, with a great deal of admin reclaiming amounts paid.

Countries with a better healthcare system than the UK, pay more and integrate more, especially social care, we seem to not want to bring SC into the mix...

As I mentioned upthread, there's a limit to how many UK doctors can flee to Australia given the small population. I think the government should reject any more grabbing by them.

Are NHS doctors millionaires? Being the ones that I referred to that are leaving the country due to Labour's tax policies?? I did not realise this! (although you and @Blossomtoes obviously did).

Labour largesse is even greater than I realised!!

Edit. Actually a fair few.NHS doctors I know are millionaires given the benefits they receive for being an NHS doctor. So I suppose your point does ring true.