Termination of pregnancies - too willing to terminate, maybe there are other choices?

[Ilovepastafortea]

I have trouble with the issue of terminating pregnancies.

For context I had 5 miscarriages & 1 baby born 'sleeping' at 29 weeks.

Also 2 of my (3) husbands were adopted-well DH's mother was adopted in the 1920's. The point is if abortion was available in 1963 & 1926 neither of them would have existed. Their childless mothers wouldn't have had babies to love & care for.

If my first husband had been aborted my lovely son wouldn't exist. He killed himself at the age of 32 leaving me with a baby. But at least I had my baby which was part of him.

If my DH's mother had been aborted my 3 lovely step children & 7 gorgeous grandchildren wouldn't be here. Both of my step sons served in the Royal Navy - one in special forces & got his Green (Marine) beret. My Step daughter is a nurse & worked in A&E for many years, is now a Matron. She has saved many lives & made a difference to many other people's lives including taking unpaid leave to be there when her grandmother was dying.

But then I understand why some people do it.

I can particularly understand it if the woman has been abused or raped - who would want to bring their abuser's or rapist's child into the world. I get that.

I just wish that they would think about having their unwanted baby adopted so that someone who can't have a baby can love & care for it.

My heart goes out to those with an unwanted pregnancy & facing this.

I don't know what I'd do to be honest.

I have no doubt that most women terminate a pregnancy after much heart searching & grief. However, I also hear about women who are terminating their 3rd or more pregnancies & using it as a method of birth control.

So brings me around to AIBU to ask if people terminate a pregnancy number 3 or 4 are being unreasonable?

Or not.

Just canvassing opinions.

There is no baby. It is foetal cells within the women's body until it is born & takes it first breath.

@Candlemidnight
Neither was mine. Fiercely independent 1929 born, who was in relationship with my father for years and didn’t bother to get married till I was well on the way 😂.

You think at 40 weeks it’s just foetal cells?

It’s seems some think it’s not a baby and has no rights until it’s through the birthing canal. The rights of the Mother are above everything and women could have six late term abortions without any thought to anyone but herself. If we go up in this direction what about the first month after birth? After all child needs it’s mum and women’s right is more important, they could have a trial for a month and if it doesn’t work out euthanasia and you can be like Lily Allen and that daft women on a podcast with and laugh your head off at your five abortions or baby euthanasia.

It would’ve been shocking to hear how abortion has got to in 1967 now, but if we keep devaluing life where does it lead?

oh and I looked up the countries with the least abortions, Finland is no.1 with very strict laws on abortion. I get there’s less abortion in wealthy countries. India and Vietnam has a high abortion rate, for reasons I’m guessing to do with gender.

Finland liberalised its abortion laws in 2022 - it is available on demand, no double signoff needed, up to 12 weeks. After that it's up to 24 weeks if there is serious foetal abnormality. So not all that strict. And of course their health system is better than ours, so they don't have the issue of people going over the dates before diagnostic tests can be completed. It's a strength of the system that there is no delay for women whose pregnancies are found to have abnormalities incompatible with life.

Other nations with low abortion rates are available, and of course Finland is a perfect example of a country where social democracy works: less economic inequality, excellent healthcare, childcare provision etc. You've just proved the point I made earlier...

It’s literally all or nothing on here it seems. Pro life, you hate women and want to take away their choices.

Point out that perhaps they take responsibility for their choices, you hate women and want to take away their choices.

Make one comment and back it up you’re making it up! oh and hate women and taking away their choices.

Ive just been on a thread where the woman clearly says she does not want to be told to have an abortion. Guess what the following 100 posters suggested, not suggested actually told her to do or she’d be letting everyone around her down.

“Every termination is a tragedy”. Really? REALLY?

It’s literally all or nothing on here it seems. Pro life, you hate women and want to take away their choices.
Well, yes. Because 'pro life' only applies to the life of the unborn. There's no such thing as being pro the life of the woman. Hence the more apt term 'forced birth supporter'. How else would you describe caring about only one part of the dyad?

Point out that perhaps they take responsibility for their choices, you hate women and want to take away their choices.
Well, yes. Because that take does not acknowledge the complexities of life: there is no such thing as perfect, side effect free contraception that always works. It just doesn't exist. Then there's the fact that all the responsibility is placed squarely on the woman, and the man is always let off the hook. And there's also the fact that abstinence doesn't work in a long term relationship/marriage, but when a woman can't use hormonal contraception and her husband doesn't want to use condoms or get the snip, what is a woman supposed to do?

Make one comment and back it up you’re making it up! oh and hate women and taking away their choices.
I haven't yet heard a single compelling argument against abortion that stands the test of rationality and compassion. I'd be interested to hear one.

Ive just been on a thread where the woman clearly says she does not want to be told to have an abortion. Guess what the following 100 posters suggested, not suggested actually told her to do or she’d be letting everyone around her down.
Yay, I agree with you on something! That is unacceptable behaviour from those commenting.

It is not a baby - as in a human with autonomy until it has been born alive. Up until that point the woman should have autonomy over her body.

In fairness - I believe that any woman has the right to end her pregnancy at any point (her right to autonomy). But I would disagree that she has the right to actively end the life of a completely viable term infant that must be delivered in any case. In the instance that a woman at 38/40 doesn't want to be pregnant she needs to give birth. I don't see the rationale for killing the baby first.

It's a good thing that doesn't happen then...

I think you’re the only person on here who is actually completely pro choice! I mean it’s at the expense of a humans life, a new born, tiny baby’s life. But at least you’re what you say you are.

This is where I’m not pro choice and would consider it killing a child. This is where I’m pro life.

No, I am completely pro choice. As early as possible, as late as necessary. No one is aborting after 24 weeks unless there is a significant risk to the mother or the baby, and I can’t even imagine why it would be considered right to force a woman to give birth in those circumstances.

A human isn't a newborn until they are actually born.

Do you believe abortion should be illegal? If not then you are pro-choice too, just not in all circumstances. Plenty of people are pro-choice with some limits.

Just like some people are anti choice with no limits and anti choice with a few exceptions such as rape.

I quite agree with you. I'm just pointing out that we can very easily prioritise a pregnant woman's autonomy without needing to end the life of the fetus if it is viable at term. It's not necessary to make divisive statements along the lines it's not a baby until it's born and breathing etc - like you say abortions in this situation don't happen because they don't need to.

What In trying to say is: The position that it's okay to actively inject a lethal substance into a viable term fetus' heart prior to an otherwise normal induction of labour or elective term caesarian, which needs to happen regardless of whether the baby is alive or dead - 1) is an extreme position and 2) it's not necessary to take that position in order to describe oneself as "pro choice" or in favour of women's autonomy. 3) It's not the logical end point of being pro pregnant women's autonomy as some anti-abortionists claim.

The point of women's rights is the baby exists only inside her body. Once out it can be cared for by another person, the woman's bodily autonomy is no longer affected.

Personally I think once beyond the point of viability it all becomes a bit sketchy.

How do you think a term, or close to, baby is getting out in any instance? The woman is giving birth regardless. And I say that as someone who sadly knows a few people who have had to deliver very wanted babies who have been stillborn at or close to twrm

It's not all or nothing, and I don't care how hysterical that makes some posters. Abortion is fine up to 20 weeks, acceptable up to 29 weeks and completely inhumane and evil unless it's for extreme reasons beyond that.

Thankfully, most abortions are carried out long before 20 weeks.

Anyone who had ever spent time in a neonatal ward with babies (and yes they ARE BABIES AT THAT STAGE) born 11 weeks early and pretends it's ok to kill them is an absolute fucking monster.

Foetuses can't feel pain, consciousness or really much of anything till about 28 weeks. This stuff is not hard to look up and no I can't post links this site never lets me. It's true, no matter how much you shout and scream.

The ONLY acceptable reasons for late term past 29 weeks termination are mother's physical life is actually under threat, or the baby has a massive abnormality - there are late term foetues with anancephaly for example missing major portions of brain and skull that it would be absolutely cruel to force any woman to have to give birth to without her consent.

It IS dependent on the age of the foetus and other variables. And that's how the vast, vast majority feel in the real world. Ranting and raving about it won't change this reality.

Surely even you are aware that the vast majority of late terminations after 24 weeks are due to foetal abnormalities, often incompatible with life. Your ridiculous example of women having six late term abortions, which I assume that you mean just because she suddenly decided that she didn't want the baby, not for medical reasons, has never happened in the UK. This would be illegal in the UK and even though, after the recent vote in Parliament, the woman wouldn't be prosecuted, the abortion provider would be.

Women requesting later (but still legal) abortions are normally more vulnerable women, often in difficult and abusive relationships and young girls who either didn't know that they were pregnant, who were too scared to tell anyone or who were just in denial.

Most women would be much more traumatised by giving their baby up for adoption than having a legal and safe abortion.

I didn't see that thread, so I don't know the circumstances, but on the other hand, read any thread about 'my boyfriend wants me to abort' and it's chock full of people telling her that she should keep the baby if she wants to.

I think that's very superficial support though - having a baby is a massive decision to take. Having an abortion keeps things as they are (with mental baggage potentially - but then having a baby comes with plenty of mental challenges too). I think in a lot of situations people don't think it through enough, and have babies when they aren't equipped to care for them well, or where having that baby will utterly squash that woman's whole life down to just surviving each day for the next 20 years.

Why would you want unwanted children to be born? So someone can maybe adopt them down the line to not feel so ‘childless’?

Nobody wants an abortion it’s not a nice thing to go through, but it’s often the right thing.

Unwanted children are born everyday that’s not changed since 1967 what’s changed is peoples attitudes to delayed gratification, responsibility for their actions and respect for the unborn. I also don’t understand how people are trivialising abortion you can only do that by dehumanising the pregnancy. This is one reason alone I couldn’t have one. I would be gaslighting myself, how’s that good for your mental health?

That's pretty much how I see it. However, the problem with the forced birthers is that they are trying to persuade us that if we fully decriminalised abortion, hordes of women would suddenly demand terminations for frivolous reasons at 37 weeks, notwithstanding the current evidence on late term abortions. I trust women to make those decisions in collaboration with clinicians, hence the need to take abortion completely out of criminal justice and into healthcare.

But that applies only to you. Other women feel differently. Nobody is forcing you to have an abortion.