Termination of pregnancies - too willing to terminate, maybe there are other choices?

[Ilovepastafortea]

I have trouble with the issue of terminating pregnancies.

For context I had 5 miscarriages & 1 baby born 'sleeping' at 29 weeks.

Also 2 of my (3) husbands were adopted-well DH's mother was adopted in the 1920's. The point is if abortion was available in 1963 & 1926 neither of them would have existed. Their childless mothers wouldn't have had babies to love & care for.

If my first husband had been aborted my lovely son wouldn't exist. He killed himself at the age of 32 leaving me with a baby. But at least I had my baby which was part of him.

If my DH's mother had been aborted my 3 lovely step children & 7 gorgeous grandchildren wouldn't be here. Both of my step sons served in the Royal Navy - one in special forces & got his Green (Marine) beret. My Step daughter is a nurse & worked in A&E for many years, is now a Matron. She has saved many lives & made a difference to many other people's lives including taking unpaid leave to be there when her grandmother was dying.

But then I understand why some people do it.

I can particularly understand it if the woman has been abused or raped - who would want to bring their abuser's or rapist's child into the world. I get that.

I just wish that they would think about having their unwanted baby adopted so that someone who can't have a baby can love & care for it.

My heart goes out to those with an unwanted pregnancy & facing this.

I don't know what I'd do to be honest.

I have no doubt that most women terminate a pregnancy after much heart searching & grief. However, I also hear about women who are terminating their 3rd or more pregnancies & using it as a method of birth control.

So brings me around to AIBU to ask if people terminate a pregnancy number 3 or 4 are being unreasonable?

Or not.

Just canvassing opinions.

I see the OP started a bunfight and then fucked off again. Mission accomplished, eh @Ilovepastafortea?

going by your own logic, just think of vicious war-mongering dictators who have mercifully been aborted!

Right and there are still (probably many) women who don’t feel good about their abortions. So again I will reiterate: it’s not completely untrue. Nobody is peddling lies.

And I thought I was going to feel fine and then I didn’t feel fine. One of my friends felt relieved when she had one. It’s a risk you take when you have one.

I am fully pro life and think the life of the baby has inherent value. I only believe in the life of the mother exception.

But every abortion debate here turns into a big fight. I don't think someone should be killed because they are unwanted. I think maybe just maybe we should help the children in the care system have happy lives.

Those are my 2 cents

Adoption is not a substitution for abortion. Everyone who is pregnant knows about adoption, and everyone who aborts has avoided that route for all the obvious reasons.

Giving birth comes with a risk of death. Yes, all births. Yes, all of them, even in the West and even in healthy well cared for women.

It doesn't matter if the risk is small it is a VERY REAL RISK. Nobody should ever take that risk who does not fully want to.

Pregnancy and childbirth also changes your body permanently. Yes, it does, even if you have the best post natal care.

And then you have a child out in the world that you did not want and that comes with all sorts of complications.

Adoption is never a substitute for abortion. It is a completely different scenario that will already have been considered and discarded in the case of women who choose to abort.

www dot news dot com dot au backslash lifestyle/real-life/news-life/nursing-influencer-dies-from-childbirth-issues/news-story backslash 583c91a5d652a498419045d510be1d51

@snughugs
„Who’s benefitted the most from the pill and abortion on demand? Men as they don’t need to commit and women are expected to have casual sex, move in and not get married.”
Bullshit! It has benefitted us, women. We have a control over our fertility and can decide if/how many children we want.
Sex outside marriage has always existed and men have always been able not to commit if they didn’t want to.
It was women who suffered in such circumstances. They were often shipped away and forced to give the baby up for adoption or abused ( look up Irish mother and baby homes). Many women had illegal abortions, which often resulted in death. Others were pressured to marry men they barely knew.
A lot of women were forced to stay with abusive men and have more children than they wanted.
Contraception and legal abortion gave us freedom. Nowadays, vast majority of women have sex without marriage because they enjoy it, not because they feel obliged to. They have the freedom of moving in with a man and moving out if it doesn’t work out, before commiting to marriage.

All true. Reproductive choices are the reason so many women are choosing not to marry, remaining childfree or marrying and having kids later in life simply put, these days Western women with access to reproductive choices actually HAVE choices.

As opposed to not very long ago when they had almost none beyond trying to fight men off until they were no longer fertile, getting married and hoping he would be decent to you or joining a nunnery.

Presumably you're a foster carer then? Or have adopted?

I'm afraid that's where adulting has to come in - taking responsibility for your actions.

Having a baby is a massive choice to make - you need to be realistic about that, that there is limited support, that you will be absolutely upending your life and taking on the responsibility for a new human.

2 bio kids. 1 adopted.

Was it contraception and abortion that gave us freedom or was it women being able to work be financially independent and get mortgages? My Mother always told me to get a good career because if a man leaves your children financially won’t be plunged into poverty as a result. I know about the Mother and Baby homes, they were awful and everyone and Ireland knew it. They blamed the church I blame the families, who would put their child into one of those places? There wasn’t a welfare system so that was partly the problem and the Catholic Church had too much power in Ireland at the time. There were plenty Church of Scotland Mother and Baby Homes too.

i think a lot of women my age (50) had Mothers who were still virgins on their wedding day. That’s unheard of now. Yes some women had sex outside marriage but don’t try and tell me it was like it is now, that’s simply not true. Young women are sexualised very early, expected to have sex before marriage, expect to have trial marriages and move in and even have children and then wonder when he will propose. There’s absolutely plenty men who abuse now as there was then, in fact the statistics for unmarried couples being in an abusive relationship is higher than a married one. We don’t have more responsible less abusive men now, that’s rubbish, they grudge an Americano in Starbucks whilst courting and expect sex before any commitment.

You talk of adoption as though it's the obvious solution, thesimplest process. Give an unwanted baby to a family who want a baby. Job done. 5*.

Having been adopted in the 70's when the process was far 'easier', and to a wonderful family, I can tell you that it's a selfish decision that doesn't factor in the child at the centre of it. Almost 50 and I still struggle with my feelings over it.

Having faced an unwanted pregnancy, based on your rose tinted view, giving the baby up for adoption should have been the obvious choice. And yet with the 'benefit' of experience, I chose to abort.

I didn't skip to the clinic with my loyalty card, it was a hugely emotional time but not once have I questioned my decision.

@Cvbaqf That is great! I assume that you live in a country where nobody can force you to have an abortion. Therefore, you can freely practice your beliefs. However, your beliefs end, where other person’s freedom starts. Your beliefs don’t give you right to have a control over other women’s bodies.
I am Catholic, but fully support women’s right to chose what’s best for them. My faith does not trump other people’s choices.

I’m sorry If I have misread you, but I don’t know where I’ve suggested that anyone isn’t taking responsibility for their actions?

Are you kidding pregnancies are a huge strain on a mother's body I cant imagine many women going through another gruelling pregnancy only to give it up at the end for the sake of protecting life. My god. The mother's life matters more she was here first

And if these women fell into poverty simply because they have had too many pregnancies and lives in a country where they cant abort what will happen next? Will you be giving these women money to help them raise their kids? FFS

I think maybe just maybe we should help the children in the care system have happy lives.

And maybe when children in care have happy loves, and are not abused and treated like second class citizens, you may have a point. Im only going on media etc, but you dont hear a lot about children in care being happy. I would love to be proved wrong though.

Its crystal clear here that yes pro lifers care and see that life begins at conception. They care about the embryos rights and believe it should have full human rights. But pro lifers do not give a shit about the poor women who have unexpectedly fallen pregnant and need to have termination to protect their existing families/kids

You don't like abortion don't have one

It really is that simple.

How would you like it if we banned remarriage for any reason because it betrays the sanctity of marriage?

Pretty sure you'd be up in arms about strangers dictating about very personal elements of your life that are unique to you and nobody else's business

Sorry - I perhaps mis-understood what you meant by support.

I assumed you meant physical support - ie. the fact that women in the UK can get an abortion for free, but, if they have a baby it's a lot tougher, and they'll need to put in a lot more work themselves - ie. support for a woman with a baby is lacking (which maybe it is, but the level of support potentially required is also significantly higher, so a much bigger ask)

If you mean mental support - I don't think I agree. I think people are very willing to cheerlead someone keeping a baby, but most women keep having an abortion very quiet, as they know that at least some of their friends and family will negatively judge them for it.

If there are so many families ready and willing to adopt, why are so many children in care?
Life outcomes for children in care are poor, so hardly the nirvana you hope to achieve.
As PPs have said, if you don't agree with abortion, no one is forcing you to have one.

You could use the examples you mentioned the other way though. I miscarried my much wanted second pregnancy at 12 weeks. I was devastated. It was complicated and I got infections and needed surgery. I was lucky to get pregnant again quickly and had my gorgeous dc2 who is now 7. If I hadn’t had the miscarriage I wouldn’t have dc2. Someone I know couldn’t conceive naturally and went through years of heartbreak before having their child by IVF. That lovely child is now my dc1’s best friend. If all that hadn’t happened to them then my dc1 wouldn’t have him as a friend. That’s life. It’s harsh but you shouldn’t attach emotion to other people’s bodies and what they choose to do with them. I am done with babies now and would not go through with another pregnancy even though I have had a miscarriage. Pregnancy and childbirth is really hard on the body even if you want a child, I can’t imagine how hard it is for those who will give the baby up. I have an episiotomy scar which is still tender 10 years later…

Yes and if we have more children in care and abortion was and is readily available to all these Mother there’s clearly a problem here too isn’t there?

There is no baby. That’s the point. It never was one.

This is a complicated topic, and you highlight really valid arguments. However, we need to also look at the other side.

1. You comment on how "unwanted babies" give childless women the opportunity to adopt. You're right, and this can be incredible. However statistically, there are more children who need adopting than there are parents who want to adopt. The adoption system already has an over-supply of children, and an under-supply of parents. So, purely based on statistics, aborted children are not the reason why women who want to adopt are unable to. Realistically, any new children given to the state, you have to assume will not be adopted.
2. You comment pretty directly on the incredible people you know who exist thanks to someone deciding to carry pregnancy to term. Life really is a marvel, and this is certainly a fair perspective from your lived experience. However, the flipside of this argument is argued in Freakonomics. We have a lower violent crime rate pretty directly as a result of abortion, which includes things like murder.