Struggling with the age gap

[Whatdoidotoday]

I need some advise because I’m losing it.

I have a 9yo and 2.5yo and I’m losing my mind. Dh is away for work for a while and usually we struggle through it together but I am just overwhelmed now.

The age gap means that there is not one activity/ event / anything that I can do with them both.
another huge issue is that both of them are children who cannot do a single thing on their own for one second

DS9 now gets a punishment for not occupying himself as I’m sick of it. He will not do any clubs so just wants to be home. But at home he is just hanging on to me constantly/ moaning/ complaining. I had such a bad experience to motherhood as he was such a Velcro child. We eventually sent him to nursery at 14m every day even though I am a sahm. He is a little better now but if you don’t tell him what to do, he can’t keep himself busy for long.

DD is an even worse child. Just constantly wanting to be on top of me. I sit down start an activity, play for 20min and walk away for 5min and she just cannot occupy herself. Constantly wants you right next to her doing the thing for her. I’m so sick of them. I’ve watched friends and they can get busy with something in the same room and their kids play/ do something independently. A few friends have even commented on how needy they are - I’m not offended because I fully agree. My toddler is at nursery every day but just for a few hours and I’m waiting for a space for the full day.

Im so worn down. I regret being a sahm. I regret being at home for them as they have turned out to be the most dependent, needy, and unable to do anything for themselves children.

im sure reading this sounds awful but I’m just burnt out.
my dh is amazing and so hands on and also agrees that our kids are incredibly hard work.

what do people do to get their kids independent.

This sounds exhausting!
A bedtime strategy that could work for your older child: tell him you will look in on him every 20 minutes until he falls asleep. Just stick your head through the door and give a wave if he's still awake. Then he knows he won't be alone and awake until morning. Hopefully he will be able to relax knowing you'll be in again soon. Then extend time to 30/45 minutes.

No OP this isn’t normal-at least for 9 year old. The younger one- maybe more
understandable to be so reliant. Has your older child been assessed for ND?

Have you considered you may have been too available / never given them the space to learn to play independently as I see a lot of parents who do that. I have a 2 year old and an 8 month old and I play with them some of the time (particularly reading with them but also to help them engage with their toys before leaving them to it) but some of the time I just get on with household stuff and am available but let them explore / do their own thing. Even my youngest will roll around exploring her toys for a bit or ending up under a dining chair (they are solid and safe) when she is in a good mood - and if they do need an intervention I will often keep it simple (kiss/cuddle/sort out their toys then leave them to have an explore again). Only works in my view because (a) I've child proofed everything so there is little that can go wrong, (b) they have a small number of toys with which i do a weekly toy rotation to make sure even less of them are out that are very open ended so can be explored in multiple ways and I'm ruthless about putting away toys i think they aged out (every expert seems to agree that more toys means children struggle to engage with them and i even noticed that with my youngest when i moved her from lots of small baby toys to more structured toys), (c) they have easy access to me if they want me (youngest cries, eldest can come to me) and (d) they have no TV or electronic toys that provide instant gratification so they have to learn to explore. Some of the independence is probably natural but I've leaned really into it with the above. Needless to say we also get out of the house a lot (also London based) and so there are only having to amuse themselves for 30 minutes or so between food, naps, outings.

You can definitely do spontaneous things in London, it’s just that your circle chooses not to do that with you for whatever reason. London is the home for being spontaneous imo there’s so much happening

Anyway I think you need to urgently work on your children being less clingy. My friend feels like her child has separation anxiety, but her parenting style is literally Velcro. When he was a baby for example, she held him for every minute for example, didn’t shower or do anything for herself kind of thing as she was so worried about anything happening to him eg him sleeping in a bad position. If you give your kids more things to do independently, they’ll gradually get more comfortable with it.

The way my friend explained it is that her kid sees her as an extension of him, like he can’t conceive doing anything without her being there. So she’s consciously trying to help him be more independent

I have the same age gap and it is HARD......Way way harder than I anticipated. My eldest will sometimes occupy themselves with tv/books/lego, but more often than not whinges they are bored whilst surrounded by options. The youngest is very needy and has some delays, so is tricky to handle and an absolute danger to themselves if not supervised. The juggle between the two is headache inducing. I'm yet to find somewhere to take them that entertains them both and is suitable with just one parent around.

I don't have any advice I'm afraid, but I hear you and understand, and hope it gets easier as they get older. X

I think the main issue op is that this is life 24/7 for you. A part time job, doing literally anything would give you some autonomy away from your kids that you clearly need and crave. Their neediness won't seem so intense and may actually feel easier to reciprocate their desire to be with you, if you get some alone time away from them. I love spending time with my kids as I don't see them much during the week due to work and school. So I enjoy the evenings and weekends with them as I have the opportunity to miss them. I was a sahm for thr first few years, and absolutely loved it, but I went back to work part time once they were in nursery and preschool and I definitely think it's a good balance. You don't have to go back to a full time corporate job. Just a couple of days a week, in a local cafe or supermarket would give you time to be an adult and not constantly be prising kids off your back or waiting on tenterhooks for the next meltdown. Your 10 year old does sound exhausting mine is 10 and apart from the occasional "I'm bored" she is not at all clingy and needy and certainly wouldn't expect me to lay with her while she fell asleep. She does her reading until she's tired enough to turn out her light. Does your son not have a reading book he could be doing at bedtime to wind down and fall asleep independently with? 2 year olds are just difficult, I get that, but by 10 it shouldn't seem so hard tbh. Mine are 8 and 10, and if they aren't crafting or playing in the garden, they're playing out with friends or at the park. We live rurally so I get this may not be possible living in London. Something has to give though, you sound completely burnt out

With my 2 year old I have a routine for bedtime i never deviate from, a night night song, and then when he went through stages were he'd called for me/get upset just after being put down it always made it worse when i came back in so I don't go in and he self soothes. In case you're wondering - super happy kid, no signs that our bond is damaged in any way by me not responding to him when he cries in this one circumstance, smiles/laughs as I put him down to sleep and often super happy in the morning (sometimes he can be a bit grumpy when he wakes up - its hit and miss), now mostly chats to himself before falling asleep. Bedtime routine is joint with my youngest - 6pm bathtime for them both, then milk, books and cuddles, then put his sister down to sleep (he sings the night night song, gives her a kiss, puts on her white noise) then back to his room for him to cuddle his two cuddly toys and whoosh them into his cot, night night song, putting on his sleeping bag and then down to bed/white noise on. He tries things to extend the process often but if it gets too OTT clear boundaries (i.e. if you don't get your sleepbag for me to put it on then I'll have to go get it). Toddlers naturally want independence as well so lean into that by letting him lead his own nighttime routine (my toddler will literally practice the night night routine on himself or his cuddly toys during the day sometimes).

You 9yo will be at secondary school in just 2 years op. You need to really help them grow up a bit! I would insist on a club or two. Loads of options other than sports or cubs / brownies - Woodcraft Folk, Badgers, art, drama etc.

You also need to do some quiet actitivities where 9yo supports 2yo (not you), so puzzles, easy baking, joint art projects, reading aloud.

And then your oh needs to take them out individually to give you a break.

Days out that work well for all ages: zoos / aquariums / butterfly houses, woods (free play), national trust properties, museums, steam trains, childrens theatre.

Harsh and insensitive

Not really.

do you have friends around with/without kids much? That can help older kids learn the ‘I’ve got to amuse myself’ thing, if you’re obviously busy with another adult (and clearly state the same!).

You send him to bed with a book or audiobook. He is sobbing because he isn't getting his won way.

As for whining and moaning, consequences. If he is home, send him to his room or make him sit on stairs for 10mins or complete a chore.

If you are going to do something planned the next day. Explain to older child what you will be doing and you don't want to hear any moaning or whining.

You and your OH really need to have a mutual strategy moving forward. If the children get mixed messages then this will not work ... e.g if the strategy is to be strict about bedtime and one of you caves in it will cause more problems.
Maybe you could discuss:

• you going to work or even voluntary work part time. You do not need to plunge back into your high stress career. You just need something to add balance to your life.

• each of you having a night out once a week to pursue an interest... the children would the see that you are more than their mother, but also have an existence of your own.
• deciding on a bedtime routine that is immutable except in the case of illness, and sticking to it. It needs to be a routine that involves a basic principle that you leave tge room and do not remain till they are asleep.
• organising things so that each of you has time with each child ... I.e. splitting them.up gorgeous outings/activities sometimes. That way you each get to know them.beter as individuals rather than as a troublesome twosome.

These are just suggestions. Jot down some more of your own so you can both have a real fundamental rethink.

I don't know where gorgeous came from!

Make them be with you doing boring things, sorting out the washing, washing the floor, sweeping up. The 9 year old can help prepare meals, the little one can "help'. I'd have a no screens rule until all the chores are done, so that they only get to go on screens when you can sit down and chill too.
Use your time wisely - get all the tidying up done, with them, while they are still up. Lying down next to them should be a story, a little chat, and then you have a nap or read or do a meal plan or something, while they go to sleep. You could try getting audio stories to play, or record a few yourself, while they are dropping off, first with you there, but with a view to them being familiar tales that they can listen to by themselves. Repetition is soothing - they can have the same story over and over again.
If they both need company going to sleep, could you have them sleeping in the same room for while?
My friend used to send small children up and down the stairs to get things for her to 'help" ; for the 2 year old, that will help tire her out.
DS could certainly help with DD, there are things they can play together even if only for a little while - play-doh, fuzzy felts ( do they still exist?) shape sorters and puzzles.
You can get them to walk as much as possible, to the local shops, the library, the post office, just get them out of the house with a 'purpose', and keep them moving.
What does DS like doing? Some kids are not great at occupying themselves because they don't know what to do - crafts are good for this, but you need to help him find ones which work for him. If he's a footballer, then challenge him to do something related, eg a hundred keepy-uppies, or get him to build an obstacle course to practice his skills on. Maybe he can learn to juggle, or do magic tricks, or build complicated lego constructions, or learn an instrument.
My experience was that the youngest chid was reasonably entertained by being involved in the routine of the older ones, so trundling along to whatever activity the big one is doing, and chatting to people there, going to the playground while DS does eg tennis lessons.
You'll need to be firmer with DS. He's going to moan anyway, so tell him he will be going to a club/set activity on at least 3 days a week, and he can choose A, B or C. Don't be swayed by argument, stand firm. Maybe he'll make friends there. He needs other kids to play with - are there cousins or family members you can invite over?

This sounds exhausting. I think you may need to go through a bit of pain to make things better. Your 9yo needs to learn to entertain himself a bit. He’s used to you always giving him attention when he demands it, so he demands it. I’m afraid you need to learn how to say no. Make sure he has plenty to do by himself.

I think I’d start with a timer. Say I will play with you in 10 minutes, and stick to ten minutes, but do then go and play with him after those ten minutes. Give lots of praise for him entertaining himself. Then slowly extend the time out. You can also set a time for how long he has you attention, tell him he has you undivided attention for half an hour, but then you really need to get the washing on or something.

You can do the same with going to sleep. First you pop out of the room for 1 minute, you can pop in and out several times in one evening, he needs to know that you will come back. Then can progress onto leaving the room for longer, but always come back. It’s a slow process, but it can really work.

In contrast to what some other people have said, I don’t think you sound like you dislike your kids at all, I think you’re suffering from burnout. You can’t keep going on indefinitely without proper downtime to recharge. If you’re constantly on duty with the kids you’re not having enough downtime and that is bad for your mental health.

@seriouslynonames thank you for saying this after all the comments about kids needing to fall asleep on their own. I have a 9 year old with ASD and he struggles so much getting to sleep, I always have to hug him. I think it’s a hormone thing or genetic as I get a lot of insomnia.

Honestly, as a mental health practitioner i think there are difficulties with bonding.

And there are certainly some attachment difficulties.

Your children 100% pick up on your emotions. Irritation , frustration, anxiety… this will be feeding into their own emotions and behaviour.

Please get some psychological support before you harm your children’s sense of self.

I see this day in day out OP. Your children are needy because for some reason they have insecure attachments. You need to think about why that is … and not keep packing them off.

I would sign him up for some summer camps and make him go! Honestly I remember as a kid not wanting to do stuff and being made and then enjoying them. It will keep him sociable and he will meet new kids and have a blast. Climbing/kayaking/robotics/stem/swimming - whatever his interests are have a look and book 2/3 things to keep him busy some weeks.

With my toddler (3.5) and nephew (11) we have always managed do things they enjoy though sometimes there are grumbles as there are compromises - forest walks, beach trips, swimming pools, playgrounds with decent zip lines/climbing frames for older kids, zoos, butterfly farm, botanical gardens, museums and galleries. There may be times when one is watching the other do activities but they will both have turns doing things they like. There are loads of free venues in London to explore, various parks, you can get to Brighton by train.

Encourage the kids to interact - praise the 9 year old for helping the 2.5 year old - tell him you really need his help with his sibling and could he show the toddler how to play ball, draw a circle, colour in, do a jigsaw, make a hungry caterpillar etc… could he read the toddler a book. Praise him and tell him it is such a big help. Last time I visited my nephew he was trying to teach my then 3 year old to play basketball and both had a blast!

I think some of this might be a personalities thing. Maybe you and they are rubbing each other up the wrong way unintentionally. I expect they can sense your frustration/stress and my DD is always more clingy when that happens.

How is your wellbeing? I ask because your mindset seems quite negative and like you want to give reasons why everything is difficult and glass half empty. My personality is naturally like that, but it proves unhelpful in a lot of situations so I try to counteract it.

Things like the park - can you sit near the grassy area for your older one, and have some books or colouring or small toys on the grass and a blanket with your smaller one? If smaller one wants to do soft play or a farm park, get the older one to do some reading, or listen to an audio book, and take turns at a trip out not just being about him but for his sibling, with the next one being for him. He needs to accept it can’t all be about him and that life can be boring. Children need to figure out how to occupy themselves, else it makes for a very unhappy and dissatisfied adult, money doesn’t buy happiness etc. My DD was always very clingy and reliant on me, but I became a single parent and she is an only. We’ve had no choice. She is much better now and will come to me for a steer and wants to bring me in but can cope doing things alone for periods of time (she is 4). Mentally it’s so much better for them to cope with not being constantly stimulated, albeit wears you down constantly being faced with the ‘mummy, mummy’.

Your older one won’t be interested soon, you’ll be struggling to drag him out of his room, and everyone always says we will want the time back!

are you sure you want to continue being a SAHM? You don't have to return to a stressful corporate job, but it sounds like you would really benefit from time to yourself, and it would allow you to put the toddler in childcare some of the time.

Some children are a lot clingier than others. Children also get clingier when they can sense they're fighting for your attention, so it can help to have a set period of undivided attention each day. In your case I would timetable this quite strictly, and divide up your day into manageable chunks. Have a section of the day where you do something with your 9 year old (if your toddler naps this would be a good time, otherwise you'll need to hold her and hero her occupied while he does Lego / reads / draws / whatever). Have a section of the day where you get outside. Grit your teeth on the moaning and whining. They need outside time, make it non-negotiable. Then have part of the day where you get on with chores or do something for yourself and they have to do their own thing. They'll hate it, they'll make a massive fuss. Cheerfully persist. You just have to let them be bored and uncomfortable and whiny, however irritating it is. Bored children WILL find ways of amusing themselves if you can just push through the threshold of complaint and leave them to it.

Dd was at her clingiest when we were going through an awful phase and I couldn't bear to be around her. That sounds horrible (and it was) but she is ND and was undiagnosed and we were having all kinds of issues we didn't understand. She literally followed me around the house demanding attention, even if it was bad attention. Things got better when I got better at understanding her, became more compassionate, improved our relationship (and got us the support we needed). I can't stress enough how much of a child's wellbeing is tied to their parent's mental health. The best advice I listened to was to prioritise my own wellbeing, because everything fell into place from there - suddenly you have more patience, more understanding, calm reactions.

What do you do that's just for you, op? Do you have any hobbies?

We've found that "first, and then" works in our house: "First I will prepare dinner, then we will play Guess Who". Any whinging about it, and I get them (I have an 8yo dd and a 14yo ds) helping me. It helps keep them occupied, gets things done and makes them realise that undivided attention is not always possible because adults have things to do.

The age gap has been ok for us tbh, but a lot depends on the personality of the older child (ours is totally laid back). There is some jealousy/ possessiveness from dd in particular, but it's getting better. Both are very independent now. We also prioritised bedtime routines, as tiredness just makes things infinitely worse. If your eldest isn't falling asleep till that time, it's likely tiredness is playing a role in the whinging.

Honestly OP, it's not that unusual (or "ridiculous", as a pp weirdly stated) to need to lie with a 2.5yr old for them to fall asleep. However as many other posters have pointed out though, as part of a wider problematic situation, something does have to change. You've had some great advice on this thread. Do you have any family nearby who might be able to take one of your kids every now and again to give you a bit of a break?

I agree that this is ridiculous, especially in the case of the 9 year old, but I also genuinely don’t see how you can be so worn down/burnt out when you normally have a few hours to yourself a day while your son is at school and your daughter is at nursery. Obviously things will be different/harder over the summer holidays, which sounds like they have already started for you, so it’s really important to start making changes now.

It might be worth both your physical and mental health getting checked out by your doctor.

Both your children need to learn how to go to sleep by themselves. More generally, I am a great believer in children wearing themselves out through lots of exercise.